Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Main Forum - Helicopter Talk


Main Forum - Helicopter Talk R/C Helicopters and the people who fly them. VENDOR TOPICS DO NOT GO HERE. Full Scale Heli threads go in OT please


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-17-2016, 01:31 PM   #61
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

My Son (Epoweredrc) and I spent another very enjoyable but hot morning flying together and he took and posted the photos.

I know the strapping tape look tacky but I hand a bunch on hand and did not mind wasting it if I did not like the outcome. Seems to be working well and IMO was worth the $15 ($9.95 and shipping)for the plumbing from FMA and the time it took me to install and seal Vario in bottle and mount it all.

Bottle is air tight, wires are sealed with 30 min. Epoxy from the inside, all extra space is filled with white foam which is used for some packing protection for electronics. It is not hard but is very firm and difficult to blow thru so not what I would call open cell,a 5/32 dia. thick wall plastic tube which I saved from something ( I save everything which may come in handy some day) is also sealed with epoxy and is the attachment point for the glow model fuel tubing to the point where the smaller tubing connects.

Bottle with Blue cap is no longer used,that was the first Vario in a mostly sealed bottle.

Fifty one flights and counting on 690.
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...

Last edited by everydayflyer; 06-17-2016 at 04:17 PM..
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2016, 06:18 PM   #62
extrapilot
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunny_jeeves View Post
How well the hard deck in telemetry performs is a mix of:

Head Speed (Higher makes the heli more responsive.)
Agility settings in the FBL (You'd want max 3D Aggressive settings)
Accuracy (+-1 foot on HP / +-1 meter on LP) of the altimeter
And latency of the signal.

So with all this "Maxed" - I'd say you might reliably get to where it can be set at 20 feet.

If it is set at 20 feet, on say a very high head speed heli, with fast servos, even coming in full power inverted it should be quick enough to rescue flipping and climbing back out. With an onboard system (No latency) you might get better, but IMHO, not enough to justify the $900 price point.
Take the Frsky baro systems available as of today. The sensor uses I2C for comms with the sensor CPU. If you put a logic probe on it- you can see a lot- the poll rate is a simple one. Here, it sends a request, and doesn’t every try to read the response for 0.1sec more. And, it only requests the update once every .5sec. Now this is local (internal to the sensor)- no setting in the radio will change this; this is as fast as the baro will send updates to the RX.

Test a trigger signal on the ADC line (here, an X4R and a Taranis Plus), and the response at the RX in the form of a channel override set to trigger via a voltage level > x, setting the servo position to 100%. That latency at best was 0.238sec. Worst I saw was 0.5sec. No filtering in place in the TX.

You still need some baro filtering- or you get noise. And even if that is only 2 samples, that is still a minimum processing lag of 0.5sec, averaging .75sec.

If you are flying at 50mph, that is 73feet every second. In 0.5 sec, that is more than 30ft. Realistically, the trigger time is more like 50-70ft at that speed. And all that assumes you aren’t running additional filtering on the TX, which would just add more lag.

And, it doesn’t include the actual recovery time at the machine level. If you can roll or pitch 360deg/sec, you are looking at something like 0.25sec just to roll or pitch 90deg (assume inverted recovery is possible- if not, this part of the recovery time could double).

There is a difference between a trigger altitude and a hard deck. Baro doesn’t work for the vast majority of pilots who fly acro helis. And a novice who is so new that he needs to fly at 50-80ft at walking speed really should spend some time with a sim, learning to hit the bailout switch (or TH) when he is in trouble. At least that way, he doesn’t have to worry about the real negatives of a baro system (false positives, or an attempted recovery in a true autorotation, etc)
__________________
"The problem with quotes found on the internet is you have no way of confirming their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
extrapilot is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2016, 08:38 PM   #63
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

Well as I am the one who is in fact flying the Logo 690 which is the subject of this thread I will say that I agree that a Vario is not ideal but also state that it does work , not for Smack 3D on the deck but fine for cruising around in FF and doing big air sports flying.

I am far from a beginner having started with .32 and .50 glow Helis back between 25 and 30 years ago and my first Electric Heli was a Kalt Wispher. I have flown 400 and 450 size electric helis for the past 8 years off and on as well as many of the micros, look at my sig.

I have tried several sims. over the years and they just do not work for me. I am 71 years old and my reflexes are not what they once were and I sometimes think rudder but input Ail. . I have crashed two different Helis with working Rescue / Bailout but not one with Hard Deck even that does not as well as most feel they must. I would love to have a $850 one with accurate HD, recovery to tail in , return to home, etc. but that is way more than I want to spend being retired and trying to get buy on Social Insecurity and a limited investment portfolio.

Some see such projects as an adventure which like any trip begins with a single step.
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2016, 08:32 AM   #64
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

FYI FMA HD uses Static Air Pressure
Snip from their HD unit


Quote:
NOTE: Hard Deck requires the static air pressure measurement to be accurate. NEVER USE A PITOT TUBE. The end of the tube
must be CLOSED. For a fixed-wing installation, always use the Static pressure tube provided in the Hard Deck Module Accessory
pack. For helicopter installations, always use the static streamer provided.
The Hard Deck Module gives Co-Pilot II the ability to read altitude quickly and accurately with an unbelievable one foot resolution.
Believe it or not, the air pressure at your feet is measurably higher than the air pressure at your head. The altitude measurement from
this tiny sensor allows the activation of the new Hard Deck Flight Mode on Co-Pilot II.
Measuring Pressure
There are two types of air pressure at a given altitude. Static Air Pressure is just like it sounds. It is the air pressure measurement
when the air is still. Total Air Pressure is the Dynamic Pressure (pressure of moving air), plus the Static Pressure. For example: when
riding in a car, if you put your hand out the window, you feel the Total Air Pressure exerted on your hand. Total Air Pressure can
cause altitude errors of over 100 feet on a RC model. Obviously, large errors caused by reading Total Air Pressure would make a Hard
Deck impossible to achieve. So, to compensate for the pressure exerted by moving air, Static Air Pressure must always be taken from
sense holes perpendicular to the air stream.
Notice in the illustrations below how the moving air rams into the Pitot tube and causes the pressure to rise. On the other hand, the
air on the static tube rushes by without entering the holes. Static pressure is the type of pressure we require for Hard Deck.
Sensing
I have seen many videos of the Co Pilot II with HD and I have seen one in person also. SImple fact is it works extremely well. Another simple fact is it uses IR sensors for the SL , bank limiting , returns to SL etc(I found the IR sesors to be a PITA to setup and mine sets on a shelf in the OEM box) and Vario for HD. All is on board aircraft and is controlled with and on board smart unit. I wish I was smart enough to design a unit which used their HD vario principle and have it trigger the Rescue feacture onboard the Brain / ikon FBL with Ver. 2.0 firmware. That IMO would be great and likely a solution / addation which would be very cost effective.

I feel as many other Heli flyers do that if it was not for the change in trends from Heli to Quads we would have that and more by now. I beta tested the Guardian 2D / 3D for Eagle Tree several years ago and it make plank flying extremely easy for a rank beginner in 2D mode and in 3D I could Hover in 20 MPH winds from nearly OOS upwind to nearly OOS( out of sight) down wind and do continues Knife edge passes back and forth until I was bored silly. I am no where near that good of a 3D plane pilot but it made me look like a pro.

Eagle Tree decided to concentrate on deleveloping it for Quads so their Heli side took a back burner and may never come to pass. BTW Guardian was around $50 , computer and Trans. Stick programing and goes between receiver and servos. Takes maybe 30 min. to install and setup.
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...

Last edited by everydayflyer; 06-18-2016 at 11:39 AM..
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2016, 03:34 PM   #65
extrapilot
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Well as I am the one who is in fact flying the Logo 690 which is the subject of this thread I will say that I agree that a Vario is not ideal but also state that it does work , not for Smack 3D on the deck but fine for cruising around in FF and doing big air sports flying.

I am far from a beginner having started with .32 and .50 glow Helis back between 25 and 30 years ago and my first Electric Heli was a Kalt Wispher. I have flown 400 and 450 size electric helis for the past 8 years off and on as well as many of the micros, look at my sig.

I have tried several sims. over the years and they just do not work for me. I am 71 years old and my reflexes are not what they once were and I sometimes think rudder but input Ail. . I have crashed two different Helis with working Rescue / Bailout but not one with Hard Deck even that does not as well as most feel they must. I would love to have a $850 one with accurate HD, recovery to tail in , return to home, etc. but that is way more than I want to spend being retired and trying to get buy on Social Insecurity and a limited investment portfolio.

Some see such projects as an adventure which like any trip begins with a single step.
This isnt some adventure. This is basic science, and baro static ports have been part of aviation for 100 years. They are the basis for pitot/static airspeed and altimeter installs.

There is no special surprise waiting for us in this. It is basic fluid dynamics. The limits of this approach don’t change. You can drop the lag time, but you cannot drop it enough. There is a huge difference between a baro trigger and a hard deck.

Maybe novice seems a disparaging term to you. Perhaps ‘compromised pilot’ seems less so? But I would include in that anyone who has limitations that reduce his ability to manually trigger a rescue. If you are having difficulty with coordination, and in separating rudder from aileron, this is perhaps not the sport for you anymore. Bailout or not, you still need to land and takeoff, you still need to deal with winds and turbulence. Most of us still need to deal with other pilots/aircraft on the runway, etc.

The point of my post was not to suggest you cannot use baro as a trigger. You can, and it was demonstrated more than a year ago, by a member of the site. The point was that it is nothing like a hard deck, and it doesn’t work in the incarnation proposed (FrSky type baro, telemetry, logic on the radio, radio trigger to FBL) for the majority of pilots who might need it, unless they are willing to set that value to a high value (say, 70ft), and can remember to disable it on landing or on an actual power failure/autorotation.
__________________
"The problem with quotes found on the internet is you have no way of confirming their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
extrapilot is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2016, 03:35 PM   #66
extrapilot
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
FYI FMA HD uses Static Air Pressure
Snip from their HD unit


I have seen many videos of the Co Pilot II with HD and I have seen one in person also. SImple fact is it works extremely well. Another simple fact is it uses IR sensors for the SL , bank limiting , returns to SL etc(I found the IR sesors to be a PITA to setup and mine sets on a shelf in the OEM box) and Vario for HD. All is on board aircraft and is controlled with and on board smart unit. I wish I was smart enough to design a unit which used their HD vario principle and have it trigger the Rescue feacture onboard the Brain / ikon FBL with Ver. 2.0 firmware. That IMO would be great and likely a solution / addation which would be very cost effective.

I feel as many other Heli flyers do that if it was not for the change in trends from Heli to Quads we would have that and more by now. I beta tested the Guardian 2D / 3D for Eagle Tree several years ago and it make plank flying extremely easy for a rank beginner in 2D mode and in 3D I could Hover in 20 MPH winds from nearly OOS upwind to nearly OOS( out of sight) down wind and do continues Knife edge passes back and forth until I was bored silly. I am no where near that good of a 3D plane pilot but it made me look like a pro.

Eagle Tree decided to concentrate on deleveloping it for Quads so their Heli side took a back burner and may never come to pass. BTW Guardian was around $50 , computer and Trans. Stick programing and goes between receiver and servos. Takes maybe 30 min. to install and setup.
Yea, the simple fact is that they have a static port installed at a location that has little variation in flow, and where the flow is perpendicular to the port. How is it that you can read that post that you presented, and not get that? A FW machine can have a static port- where the machine weathervanes, and flow angle over the fuselage is relatively constant. With an acro heli, you have no such thing. You have hover, you have collective reversals. You have travelling piros. You have knife edge piros. You have fast backwards flight. Absent all kinds of instrumentation or crazy plumbing, you don’t have a single placement on your sensor that can measure altitude via static pressure unless you limit yourself to a single flight mode (simple forward flight and hover), and even then, you will see a large noise margin. Full scale, it is not unusual to see a 50ft altimeter change just in pulling collective from ground to low hover (5ft). And that is with a calibrated install, designed for best approximation of static pressure.

So people start putting ports in canisters with enclosed volumes and packed foam. Guys, that is simply a low pass filter, and you can do it electronically just as easily. But like all low pass filters, it adds delay- lots of it. And again, it may work for you, if your goals in this are very simple. But this was presented as some game changer, competitive with true hard deck implementations. And that is silly. This has no capability of performing in that role.
__________________
"The problem with quotes found on the internet is you have no way of confirming their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
extrapilot is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2016, 05:01 PM   #67
Epoweredrc
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,576
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tallapossa, GA
Default

So your saying a vario meter can't be used to set a harddeck on a aircraft that works... I think you should check out some.of the Co pilot 2 videos on you tube with harddeck.. it's using a vario meter to read harddeck once it hits it it gets the heli level and up away from the harddeck line. I've seen one in person.

With the brain and a tranis tx and a vario meter it works.. while no the heli it's being flown on hasn't been tested at extreme flight hitting hard deck it works great upright. I'm sure it works inverted as well.
If I had same set up on a 450 I would try it inverted and all types situations but I'm not going to be the one to crash my father's$ 2000.00 logo 690 trying that stuff.

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk
__________________
XK252,K120,Cpx450 ZYX,,Trex600 Beastx, Gremlin,POD Racer, GLH,Whipit,Z-84, Elelctric Shock AMA 27 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 05:38 AM   #68
LinusLarsson
Registered Users
 
Posts: 857
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden
Default

I would not be so hard on knocking the basic idea before building something myself and finding the exact limitations. It clearly got rooms for improvements.

The guys in this thread are only using one single sensor without any kind of filtering except some crude analog stuff. What about if you took six sensors, individually calibrated, and mount in a cube like arrangement and than do the basic filtering, averaging stuff, perhaps even some voting. What if you put sensors on different places on the aircraft in different directions... I do not know what would happen, it would be better I can tell you that. What if you throw in a GPS (bad as they are for altitude). Would it be enough to get a good fast measurement, I do not know. You would probably need to work with direction to try to anticipate the hard deck too..

I like people tinkering, so keep up what you are doing. Perhaps I will take a serious shot at this in the future.

This thing extrapilot says about having to remember to start and stop it, these are just user interface limitation and can obviously be solved.

I do agree with extrapilot that this have been "marketed" as a savior, and in it's current form there are some serious limitations. The basic idea is planted but there are great many improvements that can be done, or at least tested before scraping everything. And to think that this is something a 3D pilot will use on the deck is completely out of the scope of the feature.
__________________
Trex 700E DFC - Logo 690SX - Goblin 700 - Gaui R5 - V-Bar Control
V-Bar Control flight analyzer (Win/OSX/Linux) - Latest release v4.2.4 May 17 - 2016
Sleipnir timing system - How fast can you fly?
Only the ground is the limit!
LinusLarsson is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 07:08 AM   #69
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

I know I should drop this but in the interest in accuracy, this is just not entirely accurate unlees one considers a bit of tubing and a cone crazy pluming which I do not.

Quote:
With an acro heli, you have no such thing. You have hover, you have collective reversals. You have travelling piros. You have knife edge piros. You have fast backwards flight. Absent all kinds of instrumentation or crazy plumbing, you don’t have a single placement on your sensor that can measure altitude via static pressure unless you limit yourself to a single flight mode (simple forward flight and hover), and even then, you will see a large noise margin.
FMA spent many hours deleveloping their weather vaneing sensor for the Heli application. If one took the time to look at the difference in the FW and Heli installation ...................

Snip from their install instructions

Quote:
Sensing Static Pressure on a Helicopter
Helicopters have the unique quality of being able to accelerate rapidly in any direction from 0 to 100mph. This can create static pressure
errors larger than 100 ft. To compensate for the 3D ability of a helicopter, FMA Engineers have developed a static streamer that
forces a static pressure tube to feather into the wind and always sense static pressure accurately at all angles of attack.

Video
Heli HD in action ,remember his was developed years ago and many praised it. My only issue with the Co Pilot II was all of the sensors mountings and tweaking which today's Auto Level Brain V 2.0 eliminates. .


Note: Min HD was later reduced to 30 ft..

http://www.revolectrix.com/cp2_video10_tab.htm


Post #3 in this thread here on HF has some very good install photos and post #7 gives a very detailed explanation on how it all works together..



http://www.helifreak.com/showthread....t+II+HArd+Deck
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 03:58 PM   #70
extrapilot
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: AZ
Default

A static port on a $5M helicopter with a $10,000 pitot-static system sees something like a 20-50ft variation when pulling pitch just because of the change in field pressure around the machine (it changes below the rotor with flow accelerations). Why is that? Because there are laws about pressure vs fluid velocity- Bernoulli etc. There is no way around that with a single baro sensor. We see less variation at our scale- depends on the machine/mass/location of sensor. Typically, this alone is about 10ft for a 700-class machine in low hover vs sitting on the ground.

Now you can combine sensor data- lots of pressure ports all over the machine for averaging, IR attitude detection, sonar, radar, laser, GPS, IMU, whatever you want- and get a better picture of what is happening.

My comments were directed at a telemetry-based hard deck, where a claim was made about lag times etc that make this plausible. That post suggested that you might reliably get a 20ft hard deck. And that is absolute nonsense. In a 50mph inverted level pass with an accidental pull-back on cyclic, you hit the ground before an FrSky implementation can even get the bailout signal to the machine. And that assumes you have no baro error, and no delay in the recovery (i.e. magically cancels the pitch error, and erases the inertia already in the system). With a pitch rate of 360deg/sec, just pitching from nose down to level takes approx Ľ sec, and that isn’t enough to cancel the descent inertia. In that Ľ sec, you have descended another 10ft.

A real hard deck uses trajectory planning- it looks at where the machine is, where it is going, and at what speed, along with an estimate on how much time it will take to recover (which depends on orientation, machine capabilities that have been measured in flight, etc). If you are on a trajectory that will put the machine below that hard deck, it will intervene. For that to work, you need lots of sensors, lots of CPU, lots of historical data, and very low latency.

OK?
__________________
"The problem with quotes found on the internet is you have no way of confirming their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
extrapilot is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 05:44 PM   #71
CZorzella
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brazil, SP, Sao Paulo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoweredrc View Post
So your saying a vario meter can't be used to set a harddeck on a aircraft that works... I think you should check out some.of the Co pilot 2 videos on you tube with harddeck.. it's using a vario meter to read harddeck once it hits it it gets the heli level and up away from the harddeck line. I've seen one in person.

With the brain and a tranis tx and a vario meter it works.. while no the heli it's being flown on hasn't been tested at extreme flight hitting hard deck it works great upright. I'm sure it works inverted as well.

I have a FMA Co-Pilot II with hard deck installed on my 500 and all I can say about it is that it is ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!

Carlos
CZorzella is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 05:52 PM   #72
CZorzella
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brazil, SP, Sao Paulo
Default Hard deck, is the only way never to crash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by extrapilot View Post
A real hard deck uses trajectory planning- it looks at where the machine is, where it is going, and at what speed, along with an estimate on how much time it will take to recover (which depends on orientation, machine capabilities that have been measured in flight, etc). If you are on a trajectory that will put the machine below that hard deck, it will intervene. For that to work, you need lots of sensors, lots of CPU, lots of historical data, and very low latency.

A real hard deck???

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have both FMA Co-Pilot II with hard deck and Skookum SK720BE with GPS and hard deck.

These two systems delivers the hard deck function in different ways and both works perfectly well. I've tested both systems in every possible way.

So my question is... If that's not real hard deck, what is it?

Carlos
CZorzella is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 08:36 PM   #73
sutty
Registered Users
 
Posts: 9,657
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Manchester, England
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZorzella View Post
A real hard deck???

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have both FMA Co-Pilot II with hard deck and Skookum SK720BE with GPS and hard deck.

These two systems delivers the hard deck function in different ways and both works perfectly well. I've tested both systems in every possible way.

So my question is... If that's not real hard deck, what is it?

Carlos
It might be a real hard deck, but it is next to useless for me and I imagine for many others. I installed it, and tested it at its, current for the time, lowest altitude of 50 feet, and it worked as advertised.

The problem with this is I spent much of my time at less than 50 feet. If I tried to fly around at just over 50 feet, to try and learn a new manoeuvre, let's say inverted backwards, which was a challenge for me at the time, I found that I would be frequently breaching the deck and triggering a recovery, which was irritating at best.

Even for learning a new move such as that, 50 feet was too high for me, I just didn't like it, even with my 600, but when set to 50 feet, you can't actually practice at 50 feet, you have to be at probably 70 to 80 feet, to avoid random unwanted triggers, which just made it worse.

I just couldn't deal with learning an inverted backwards circuit at 80 feet. It didn't look like my heli normally does. I felt like I was squinting up at it, and I couldn't see the tiny subtle changes in attitude or altitude that were my cues to help me learn.

For my flips, rolls, and piro flips, which I was doing at about 20-30 feet at the time, then I couldn't use it at all.

Maybe you were party to the discussion with FMA at the time, as I was in the forum, indeed I recall that you were, and the pleading with them to make the deck lower was met with, 'it simply cannot be done such that it will be reliable, we have done extensive testing, etc, etc', and they would not allow users the option to overide.

Some people did their own mod, by squeezing the streamer tube during initialisation, in a repeatable manner, such that the pressue would go up slightly at the sensor, such that when they let it go it would say they were already at 30 feet, so their HD of 50 feet was now only 20, but whether it triggered for them reliably is another matter.

After months of pleading they did much more work and testing, and they did manage to get it down to 30 feet, though I never see mention of this now, so I don't know if you can set it to this now, or not, but even at 30 feet you would have to fly around at 50 feet or so to avoid triggering it, just because you lost a little altitude here and there, and not because you were out of control. Sadly that was still too high for me.

Fact is I realised that unless there was a much better implementation, with trajectory planning, then these things were not for me. Maybe these exist now, but they would have to be really good, because most of my 'risky' stuff, where I can put it in in a fraction of a second, is at around 15 to 20 feet. Even if they exist I guess they are expensive right now.

Maybe they do exist now, but the carefully tested implementation that is the FMA HD, with a single barometric sensor, isn't one of them.

The fact is FMA went to a lot of trouble to test their version, and it was restricted to 50 feet, possibly 30 now, and they have the streamer, how can a version without that hope to be set at 20 feet especially when it is working through radio telemetry?

Surely this is all that EP is trying to say, though I'm sure he will speak for himself.

As for flying in the deck, even when activated, this is of course possible, and I many a time forgot to turn it off and yet landed successfully. Sure it's not recommended, but it still takes your commands, albeit significantly damped and angle limited. Depends of course on how aggressive you have that part set up, but it would still be flyable.

Then again, just because it wan't for me doesn't mean it doesn't have its place for some.

I was an early adopter of that system, as I know you will remember, almost the day it came out, and I made a video not too long after to show others. There were corporate videos, but I thought a user video might be useful to some. No doubt that it worked. Mine was in conjunction with the MicroBeast, on my 600, with the CPII set to output large travel, to allow for very aggressive recovery. Far more aggressive settings than I had it set for me to fly it. The recoveries can only be detected by the loud blade noise, and the motion, as I failed to speak during the video and some of the other things I do, like testing the angle limit, aren't obvious at all. I think there are around 10 HD recoveries in the video though.

Interesting to look back at it. Certainly works, but it's high. Sorry about the camera drifting in and out of focus.



Cheers

Sutty
__________________
Regards, Sutty
BeltEXI, mCX, mSR, 4G3, FBL Trex250SE µB, FBL Trex450Pro µB,
FBL Trex550e VX1 Pro, FBL Trex600ESP VX1e, Parkzone P51D, QRX350Pro
sutty is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 09:13 PM   #74
CZorzella
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brazil, SP, Sao Paulo
Default

Thank you Sutty for bringing up so many memories. I do remember all the talk we had with FMA representatives about lowering HD level. I also remember all your videos that I always found them very much inspiring.

Well the thing is that we don't have many HD options nowadays. FMA, has lowered the HD level to 30 feet, but IMO, it is now outdated as it requires a separated RX; not practical considering the fact that most of the FBL available requires only satellites. (at least for those using Spektrum), not to mention the need to install a static streamer.

Skookum works well; the only thing is that it requires an oversized GPS module to be installed, usually on tailboom. GPS2 HD works like a treat, but it still is limited to 5m (16ft) and its cost is very expensive.

If I'm not mistaken, the other option relies on telemetry to trigger events, but it only works on certain radios, and I'm still not so sure about its reliability in comparison to dedicated solutions.

Anyways, overall, I'm very happy having owned FMA and Skookum devices in two of my helis.

Cheers

Carlos
CZorzella is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 09:32 PM   #75
Epoweredrc
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,576
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tallapossa, GA
Default

50 foot is kinda high. I used to never like flying a heli up high like that 450 way to small to be at 70 foot flying around. the 690 often it reads out 90-100 feet. we fly at a field that were on top of the flat and often cause of the sun are flying over the bottom part of the hill. and the vario seems to do well knowing this. the harddeck just needs to work for basic FFF and maybe some inverted hovers or during flips. they will be no 50MPH+ backwards flight at least not on purpose. I am trying to teach myself to fly backwards and inverted both but slow as i can keep the heli going sometimes backwards does get to moving faster then i like and i bail out of it. as said i would love this set up my dad has now on a 450 sized heli so i could test it more. but not even going to attempt with the big 690. thanks for the input oh btw the vario with the Taranis is set to 39 foot.
__________________
XK252,K120,Cpx450 ZYX,,Trex600 Beastx, Gremlin,POD Racer, GLH,Whipit,Z-84, Elelctric Shock AMA 27 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2016, 04:55 AM   #76
extrapilot
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZorzella View Post
A real hard deck???

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have both FMA Co-Pilot II with hard deck and Skookum SK720BE with GPS and hard deck.

These two systems delivers the hard deck function in different ways and both works perfectly well. I've tested both systems in every possible way.

So my question is... If that's not real hard deck, what is it?

Carlos
Carlos

I don’t understand where there is confusion. A hard deck is possible- and it has been implemented. But that is not the same thing as a baro trigger via telemetry calling a bailout in the TX, which is then implemented by the FBL- a half second later if you are lucky. My post was in regard to a post of a participant who is adamant about how a $20 baro is a ‘game changer’ in this context. And that is absolute nonsense. It is nothing like the FMA/Skookum solution in terms of capability.

Regards
__________________
"The problem with quotes found on the internet is you have no way of confirming their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
extrapilot is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2016, 05:38 AM   #77
CZorzella
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brazil, SP, Sao Paulo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extrapilot View Post
Carlos

I don’t understand where there is confusion. A hard deck is possible- and it has been implemented. But that is not the same thing as a baro trigger via telemetry calling a bailout in the TX, which is then implemented by the FBL- a half second later if you are lucky. My post was in regard to a post of a participant who is adamant about how a $20 baro is a ‘game changer’ in this context. And that is absolute nonsense. It is nothing like the FMA/Skookum solution in terms of capability.

Regards

EP, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Carlos
CZorzella is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2016, 02:20 PM   #78
gunny_jeeves
Registered Users
 
Posts: 3,810
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Carrollton, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extrapilot View Post
A real hard deck uses trajectory planning- it looks at where the machine is, where it is going, and at what speed, along with an estimate on how much time it will take to recover (which depends on orientation, machine capabilities that have been measured in flight, etc). If you are on a trajectory that will put the machine below that hard deck, it will intervene. For that to work, you need lots of sensors, lots of CPU, lots of historical data, and very low latency.
I agree 100% with this. That is built into the Skookum 720BE with GPS.

BUT, that is a $900 FBL.

So, we're left with only a couple options...

1. Ideal - Skookum / CoPilot II HD - Ideal is something built in, and rapid response.
2. Realistic - Manual rescue "Switch"... YOU pull the switch... IT rescues the heli... (So any FBL with Rescue...) $140 and up.

Certain TX vendors have capabilities to utilize telemetry as a switch... Sure, it's mostly experimental to do this... but it's possible with a Jeti, Taranis or Turnigy 9XR-Pro with a Frsky module.

Reality is that it works!

Now improvements I see coming?
Taranis / 9XR - Likely not too many. Maybe more accurate or more rapidly firing sensors?
Jeti - I can see the Jeti REX RX's eventually being capable of offloading the logic from the TX to themselves. The ASSIST versions being privy to the same accelerometer and other info much earlier, and enough CPU to do more of the work locally...
Other vendors - Unfortunately I have not seen others take up the torch to build this capability (telemetry as a switch) in, so I don't think that will come outside those three. Maybe DEVO with Deviation... But only because it is 1. Open, and 2. Getting spanked by OpenTX.

In terms of capabilities to build confidence? The hard deck from telemetry not only works, but works way better than expected. Ideal option is a low or mild head speed 3D heli. Limit speeds and do tricks 50 feet up. TADA! It will blow you away if the hard deck is needed...

On a ridiculous powered smack 3D heli? It will likely work too. (If you can handle the heli, intentionally practice over 50 feet, you won't fly it into the ground full speed, so even if your correction is not fully effective, the hard deck will trigger and will likely still work anyway.)

*** KEY *** Will the heli smack ground from 50 to zero in 0.5 sec despite your corrections? You're still flying it, but even if you screw up, you likely slow it down enough to catch the lag. (Its only 0.5 sec)

Lets say you are practicing aileron tic tocs... and loose the tail. Heli falls sideways down, hard deck triggers. Rainbows, and you "zone out" upside down.... Well you will see there's a problem and do something, plus the hard deck will kick in too. As a Pilot you merely have to keep it airborne if it drops below the 50 feet for more than 1/2 second.

Anyway, it is hard for me to take anyone serious if they don't think this is a cool idea and helpful tool. Granted it needs to be better understood, and ideally, you should remember to pull the rescue switch on your own anyway, but it still helps and demonstrates a ton of feature capability.
gunny_jeeves is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2016, 02:29 PM   #79
CZorzella
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brazil, SP, Sao Paulo
Default

That was well said, Gunny.

Carlos
CZorzella is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2016, 02:37 PM   #80
gunny_jeeves
Registered Users
 
Posts: 3,810
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Carrollton, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZorzella View Post
That was well said, Gunny.

Carlos
Thank you! This is of course very near and dear to my heart.

It's a good training tool if it lessens the burden on the pilot so they can focus on what they want to learn, so by rights, even the lowly telemetry hard deck can potentially benefit most anyone who does not fly smack, 3 feet off the deck.

For those guys? Screw it. "They've Arrived" anyway.

If folks do slow 3D, 3 feet off the deck? They can go to 50 feet and start trying to speed it up... gaining a ton of benefit from the hard deck.

I'm glad the Logo is getting some good use!
gunny_jeeves is online now        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Main Forum - Helicopter Talk


Main Forum - Helicopter Talk R/C Helicopters and the people who fly them. VENDOR TOPICS DO NOT GO HERE. Full Scale Heli threads go in OT please

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2016 by RCGroups.com, LLC except where otherwise indicated. The HeliFreak.com logo is a trademark of RCGroups.com, LLC.