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Old 11-28-2016, 10:37 AM   #1
Dipweed
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Red face 470L Design

Bearing Configuration

470L Main Rotor Holder the bearings positions are questionable.

On all my 450s and 450Ls Align changed the bearing placement so the Thrust bearings ride against the Rotor Holder.

Why?

New thrust bearing placement provides a stronger design and the Feathering Shaft is held with a radial bearing at the ends.

Old thrust bearing placement is lower strength.

470L tail bearing configuration is good.

Now
I recieved my 470Lp On my biuld I will move the Thrust bearings in.

IMO 470L manual is in error and possibly all 470L biulds.

If you guys / gals have any thoughts on this PLZ post.
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Old 11-28-2016, 01:01 PM   #2
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The image titled 'old' is plain wrong. the thrust loads end up being transmitted through the radial bearing, which defeats the purpose of having a thrust bearing.

The other two are fine. If you move the thrust bearing to the inside on the 470L then that would be no use unless you also substitute a small washer for the large one that is provided. If you used the provided large washer along with placement of the thrust bearing 'inside' then the thrust load would go through the radial bearing, which again makes the thrust bearing pointless.
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Old 11-28-2016, 03:00 PM   #3
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On all the models I have built the thrust bearing is the one in the grip be it main blade or tail.

I don't know if it makes any difference if I put the radial bearing in last but I just follow the instructions and have not had any issues so far.
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:36 PM   #4
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Default Read 'em and Weep

First look at

Align Trex 450L Dominator Manual

Then

Align Trex 470L Dominator Manual

FBL Head Strength Increase

Bearing FBL head strength increase is from angular momentum or fulcrum

also review

New Align 450 Feathering Shaft Kit h45h005xxt

There is 100s of post on this subject and I converted many Align 450 Plus/Sport/Pro
with this Align kit
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Last edited by Dipweed; 11-29-2016 at 12:33 PM.. Reason: Added Align Documentation
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:25 PM   #5
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could it be because they are different head design? DFC vs ELF/3G??? The DFC doesn't have those washout arm/follower arms or what ever they are called??
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Old 11-28-2016, 10:10 PM   #6
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The head unit in my 470LM kit was assembled from the factory correct (thrust washer in the grip and radial bearing at the end), I took it apart to inspect and lube the thrust washers. I didn't even look at the manual and noticed it was wrong since I have a 450L and know how the thrust washer should go. I can see where it might cause confusion/wrong assembly by someone not familiar with Align's Head Units.
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Old 11-28-2016, 10:40 PM   #7
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Red face 470L Turnbuckle

FYI

I have 2 packs (4 sets) of the 470L Turnbuckles from aligntrexstore.

Align T-REX 470L Counter Thread Main Linkage Rod Set # H47H004AX $5.99

Each Packaged has 2 sets enough for two 470L and the ball links screw in easly and are very robust when theaded to the 470L manual dim 35.5mm

IMO This is a must install 470L part
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Old 11-29-2016, 01:00 AM   #8
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The most important thing about thrust bearing assembly is that the thrust bearing only must take thrust loads and the (outer) radial bearing be isolated from those loads. If the thrust bearing is outside of the radial then it has to use a large washer that bears on the outer race of the radial bearing so that loads are transferred direct accross the race and not through the actual radial bearings.
if on the other hand the thrust bearing is 'inside' the radial bearing then and small washer is required that bears against the inner race.

There are arguments that the thrust bearing 'inside' is better because it spaces the radials wider apart making for less play in the grips. This is true but either way works ok, it FAR more important to make sure that the correct washers are used, otherwise you will bind up your outer radial bearing under thrust loads.

Bottom line is if you dont fully understand how these assemblies are meant to work dont go changing from what the manual says. I'm curious as to where the image you called 'old' came from, because it's wrong.
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Old 11-29-2016, 02:58 AM   #9
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Red face 20 FC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy_Old_Man View Post
I'm curious as to where the image you called 'old' came from, because it's wrong.
Yes
The washer is critical The washer size is critical. The washer location is critical And I tried to make Al washers and they failed so The washer materilal is also critical.

Nice write up.

Old and New was just a designation to Distinguish between and from the Bearing Configurations.

Last
Align states inspect and grease these bearings every 20 Flight Cycles (FC). Which means for each 5 min flight that is every 2 flight hours (FH).
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Old 11-29-2016, 09:55 AM   #10
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Oups
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Old 11-29-2016, 12:40 PM   #11
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Red face TREX 470LM Dominator Build

On my 470L build will post any build stuff issues ASAP .

But

Align has made 470L biuld (5 total) Videos - YouTube

TREX 470LM Rotor Head Part 1 of 5
TREX 470LM Frame Part 2 of 5
TREX 470LM Electronics and Tail Part 3 of 5
TREX 470LM Tail Part 4 of 5
TREX 470LM Electronics Placement Part 5 of 5


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Old 11-29-2016, 12:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dipweed View Post
Last
Align states inspect and grease these bearings every 20 Flight Cycles (FC). Which means for each 5 min flight that is every 2 flight hours (FH).
That is WAY more than necessary. Checking every 20 flights would be way over the top. They do not wear that quickly. I check every couple hundred flights if that.
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Old 11-29-2016, 02:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy_Old_Man View Post
The most important thing about thrust bearing assembly is that the thrust bearing only must take thrust loads and the (outer) radial bearing be isolated from those loads. If the thrust bearing is outside of the radial then it has to use a large washer that bears on the outer race of the radial bearing so that loads are transferred direct accross the race and not through the actual radial bearings.
if on the other hand the thrust bearing is 'inside' the radial bearing then and small washer is required that bears against the inner race.

There are arguments that the thrust bearing 'inside' is better because it spaces the radials wider apart making for less play in the grips. This is true but either way works ok, it FAR more important to make sure that the correct washers are used, otherwise you will bind up your outer radial bearing under thrust loads.

Bottom line is if you dont fully understand how these assemblies are meant to work dont go changing from what the manual says. I'm curious as to where the image you called 'old' came from, because it's wrong.
Very clear, great info thank you.

One detail from "Freddy can fly", in the center part, the cage goes toward the center to prevent the grease from flying out by centrifuge force (centriped for the purist).

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Old 11-30-2016, 08:57 PM   #14
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Red face 470L Design Issues

Head Washer
470L Spindal Bearing Spacer between the Thrust bearing race and the Radial bearing race are wrong size.
Replace Spindal Bearing Spacers with 4 standard metric brass washers.

Tail Washer
Tail arms can go over center and lock in place. This can be controlled by FBL controller limits but aerodynamic loads may cause an over center lock. This may be due to the kits longer Shaft.
Add Washers to 470L Tail Belt Rotor Shaft.

470L Extra Part
Kit came with 2 470L Tail Belt Feathering Shaft H47T008AX both are identical in length and tooth count. Why the extra part? I dont know. Both measure 49mm

380 Carbon Fiber Blades
CG and weight were off and were corrected.

74 Tail Blade
CG and weight were good
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Old 12-01-2016, 12:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dipweed View Post
Head Washer
470L Spindal Bearing Spacer between the Thrust bearing race and the Radial bearing race are wrong size.
Replace Spindal Bearing Spacer with 2 standard metric brass washers.
What do you mean by 'wrong size'?

bear in mind that thickness as well as diameter is critical. A standard washer will be much thicker than the washer supplied so using a standard washer will cause over compression of the bearings and probable 'notchiness' in operation.
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Old 12-01-2016, 02:00 AM   #16
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Just a little confused...

So is the Align 470LM manual correct in regards to the thrust bearings?

or;

Should it be the other way around (thrust bearing in blade grip?

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Old 12-01-2016, 02:12 AM   #17
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Red face

Ok
470L has larger but identical bearings to the 450L and all the 450 dfc.

IMO 450L Bearing Configuration (Radial Bearing out) is correct and should be used on the 470L.

470L Spacer (washer)

470L Spindal Bearing Spacer

Contacts the Radial bearing outer race
and
Contacts the Thrust bearing inner race.

The thrust bearing and race moves Like crazy.
The Radial bearing outer race is fixed and will not move
So
470L Spindal Bearing Spacer rubs (grinds) on the thrust bearing race.

Fix
On my 470L I removed Spindal Bearing Spacer and installed 2 small brass metric washers.

The reason why I used 2 washers is
Metric washers that small are so thin I needed 2 brass metric washers to equal the thickness of the Spindal Bearing Spacer

IMO The Spindal Bearing Spacer should be removed and small brass metric washers installed.
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Old 12-01-2016, 02:53 AM   #18
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The supplied washer appears to be correct if the bearings are assembled as per the manual (thrust bearing outside), so it's incorrect to say that it's 'the wrong size'. The assembly shown in the manual is a acceptable. While there might be arguments that thrust bearing inside is better it's not really a big deal. Personally I'd build it as per the manual and I'm absolutely sure it will work just fine. I have helis build either way and don't really notice any difference in practice.

Yes, if you move the thrust bearing to the outside you need a different washer but the thickness is critical. The manual says 0.5mm thick so you should use one of the exact same thickness. The problem with standard washers is they are not made with any precision so their thickness and flatness tolerances are not nearly good enough for the purpose.

If yours is assembled and the grips turn freely with no slop then fair enough but I'd personally never use standard washers where a precision part is required. You can buy special precision shim washers if you wanted to do the job right.
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Old 12-01-2016, 02:22 PM   #19
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Default T-REX 470LP Blades

On my T-REX 470LP KIT Blade Weight and CG were off

380 Carbon Fiber Blades(B) HD380AQCB $13.99

CG and Weight Main Blades

CG (Balance Pt)
Place 2 blades on round pencil so ends match
Roll the pencil just to the point where you find and mark the 1st blade balance pt (CG)
Continue rolling pencil until you find and mark the 2nd blade balance pt (CG)

Tape / Sticker Main Blade

CG good Weight bad
Add tape to lighter blade at CG mark.

CG bad Weight good
Add same tape to both blades to get CG same

CG bad Weight bad
Add tape to lighter blade to get CG same.

Sanding Tail Blade
CG good Weight bad
Sand heaver blade on both ends

CG bad Weight good
Sand both blades to get CG same.

CG bad Weight bad
Sand heaver blade on one end to get CG same.

Why do it?
Weight bad cause vibration in hover and flight.
CG bad cause vibration in flight.
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Old 12-01-2016, 04:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dipweed View Post

470L Extra Part
Kit came with 2 Tail Belt Rotor Shaft H47T008XX both are identical in length and tooth count. Why the extra part? I dont know.

470MX Brushless Motor
Motor has no flat for set screw.
File a flat for set scew
Are you sure both shafts are the Same size? My kit also came with an extra shaft in the box but it was longer. It's not much longer but was for sure the longer one.

Also my motor had a flat spot on the shaft.
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