Hard Deck Function

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by rdlohr

To hook me, you would need the following:

1) Would have to be a replacement for my FBL controller with ultra clean wiring.
2) Would need a 10 - 15 ft deck, at least within 100 feet of the pilot. Farther off than that and a 50 ft deck would be fine.
3) Would need to allow me to define a flight area so I could stay in range and not put people behind the flight line at risk.


I would use it on one heli as a trainer to practice new moves. Safety to bystanders would be my main objective, with crash avoidance a close second.

Rick

Hi Rick,

I would like and have asked for all the above. Things will probably progress in steps. Maybe the next generation will include some are all of the above.

The HD is just a module (altimeter) that connects to an existing CoPilot II avionics box. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the altimeter does not have a GPS.

Item one: It would not surprise me that FMA may develop a FLB/CoPilot system where all is combined. I really have no idea what their future plans are. Your guess is as good as mine. Some times the public dictates what is developed and when.

Item two: I would like to see the 10 to 15 ft. deck as well but I am well aware of the problem encounter and to over come to constantely read accurate barometric pressures with an altimeter. The upside is the speed of the readings that an altimeter will provide to CoPilot. The 100 ft. from the pilot would take GPS to identify but currently the lag in GPS data is such that you can be out 150 ft. or more before the GPS catches up. I believe the delay is in the 2 second range. A helicopter or airplane can go a long way while you count 1 Mississippi two Mississippi.

Item three: This again require GPS which will react too slow to protect the pit area. Hopefully some one will come up with a method that can let an electronic box in an aircraft know where it is in a few mili seconds. At least at a price range the average RC pilot can afford. This particular add-on want cost the pilot that already has a CoPilot II very much. No, I don't know what the price will be. And probably cost less than many of the FLB systems available on todays market even if they had to buy the complete CoPilot HD new.

It sure doesen't hurt to ask does it. And we can hope for the best.

I commend FMA for what they have done producing this little package that will do so much at a price that almost any if not all helicopter and airplane enthusiast can afford. For many it IMO will bring a lot of joy and success to their hobby. I believe the hobby as a whole will be better off having CoPilot HD available compaired to it not existing.

Thanks a lot for you comments and suggestions,
Jack

[McKrackin]

You could wear a transmitter that would give your location to the CPII without GPS.

Old tech there.

I have seen the transmitter on the aircraft with the RX on a camera.
It used it to track the aircraft in flight for high quality unmanned video.

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by McKrackin

You could wear a transmitter that would give your location to the CPII without GPS.

Old tech there.

I have seen the transmitter on the aircraft with the RX on a camera.
It used it to track the aircraft in flight for high quality unmanned video.

Hi McKrackin,

I'm sure the tech exists as you say. I think cost is most likely the big problem there. But maybe not. I know proximity sensors were looked into but found not to be usable. I don't remember why.

Thanks
Jack

[rdlohr]

Originally Posted by jdd1

Hi Rick,

I would like and have asked for all the above. Things will probably progress in steps. Maybe the next generation will include some are all of the above.

The HD is just a module (altimeter) that connects to an existing CoPilot II avionics box. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the altimeter does not have a GPS.

Item one: It would not surprise me that FMA may develop a FLB/CoPilot system where all is combined. I really have no idea what their future plans are. Your guess is as good as mine. Some times the public dictates what is developed and when.

Item two: I would like to see the 10 to 15 ft. deck as well but I am well aware of the problem encounter and to over come to constantely read accurate barometric pressures with an altimeter. The upside is the speed of the readings that an altimeter will provide to CoPilot. The 100 ft. from the pilot would take GPS to identify but currently the lag in GPS data is such that you can be out 150 ft. or more before the GPS catches up. I believe the delay is in the 2 second range. A helicopter or airplane can go a long way while you count 1 Mississippi two Mississippi.

Item three: This again require GPS which will react too slow to protect the pit area. Hopefully some one will come up with a method that can let an electronic box in an aircraft know where it is in a few mili seconds. At least at a price range the average RC pilot can afford. This particular add-on want cost the pilot that already has a CoPilot II very much. No, I don't know what the price will be. And probably cost less than many of the FLB systems available on todays market even if they had to buy the complete CoPilot HD new.

It sure doesen't hurt to ask does it. And we can hope for the best.

I commend FMA for what they have done producing this little package that will do so much at a price that almost any if not all helicopter and airplane enthusiast can afford. For many it IMO will bring a lot of joy and success to their hobby. I believe the hobby as a whole will be better off having CoPilot HD available compaired to it not existing.

Thanks a lot for you comments and suggestions,
Jack

No problem. Glad to help. What it takes to hook me may be dramatically different than others. I love seeing new products and appreciate the time and effort required to develop and evolve them. Best of luck to you guys!

Rick

[salience]

Originally Posted by jdd1

<snip> What will happen if the pilot attempts to roll or flip the aircraft below the hard deck is: as the attitude of the aircraft reaches approximately 30 degrees then CoPilot momentarily takes over bringing the aircraft level. If the pilot continues holding extreme cyclic then the process will continue to reoccur. From the ground you will see the aircraft bobble 1) indicating the aircraft is below the hard deck and 2) prevents the pilot from forcing the aircraft into a crash.
Jack

So it seems that in HD mode, flying below 50ft., you will be in relatively complete control for "stately flying", not doing anything acrobatic? The unit might be very useful for low altitude FPV and photography. The pilot can concentrate on the photos/videos and mostly ignore having to be instantly ready to avoid a crash.

I assume "zero altitude" is set relatively, barometrically, as the unit is turned on, so it works at any absolute altitude, such as in the mountains? Speaking of mountain flying, what happens if I try to fly down the hill, or into the crevasse, i.e., BELOW zero altitude?

[salience]

Originally Posted by jdd1

Hi Rick,
No it does not take the place of the FBL. CoPilot HD will work with FBL units where the receiver and the FBL unit are separate.
Jack

I should probably already know this, but... CPII can't be used with the Spektrum/Microbeast AR7200 but could be used with a separate Rx plus microbeast??

edit:
Sorry, just re-discovered the thread of Night's testing of stabilisers with FBL controller where it is made obvious that the stabiliser must be wired inbetween the RX and FBL controller.

[deh1955]

I have watched JDD1 test this for quite a while now. The system is impressive to say the least. Currently it is on my helicopter, a 50 size flybarred Raptor. I have it on to learn inverted flying and flying backwards. The system gives you a level of comfort that allows you to learn the routine without the fear of crashing your helicopter. Above or below the hard deck, I have full control of my helicopter. You really cannot tell the difference the way we set it up. The hard deck for me right now is set up at I believe 70 feet. The helicopter is not to difficult too see. As I get more comfortable with flying inverted, we can lower it down.

I have read most of the pages on this thread, and until one sees what this system is capable of doing, I can understand the doubters. JDD1 made a believer out of me. FMA has a device here that will make it much more easier for pilots like myself to learn more. Unlike a lot of the 3D pilots out there, I did not grow up with joy sticks in my hand. Being in my 50's my hand / eye coordination is not that quick, but I love flying helicopters. While I am flying a Beta unit right now, I will buy the public version as soon as it comes out. The money saved well I learn my orientations is worth it to me.

I also watched JDD1 son fly an airplane with this device on it and as far as I new, the son had flown for years. JDD1 then told me his son had never flown an airplane before. Seeing is believing and I want to thank FMA for making it easier for me to advance my flying skills.

[runesb]

hum, missed this thread....This is quite intrestning hardware and might be mounted to one of the birds.....

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by salience

So it seems that in HD mode, flying below 50ft., you will be in relatively complete control for "stately flying", not doing anything acrobatic? The unit might be very useful for low altitude FPV and photography. The pilot can concentrate on the photos/videos and mostly ignore having to be instantly ready to avoid a crash.

I assume "zero altitude" is set relatively, barometrically, as the unit is turned on, so it works at any absolute altitude, such as in the mountains? Speaking of mountain flying, what happens if I try to fly down the hill, or into the crevasse, i.e., BELOW zero altitude?

Hi salience,

Good question. I live near the Dallas Metroplex ares and it is relative flat here. I personally had never thought about this situation and really don't know the answer but try will to find out from FMA and post. You may also want to contact them directly @ Ph# 301-798-2770

Correct, the altitude sets to zero when the unit is turned ON.

The altitude hold mode might be a better fit to you for FPV and photography at any altitude. Switching to that mode puts you bird in a stabilized mode, then fly to the altitude you choose, momentarily turn CoPilot HD OFF and then back ON. The altitude is now set and CoPilot HD will now assist in maintaining that altitude as well as being stabilized.

Thanks again for the below zero altitude question.

Jack

[ricoalonso]

Is the standard self-level IR sensor still needed for the HD or does the HD sensor completely replace the self-level IR sensor?

Thanks.
Rico.

[nightflyr]

The HD module is an add on to the present system

[ricoalonso]

I see. Thanks, nightflyer.

[im4711]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

The posting of flight videos and of related photographs of the unit are not with in my authority to release.

And to be completely clear on the matter..
I was brought up as being a man of my word.... I will take your argument one step further ...
I can defend the platform wholeheartedly, because I have seen it in action and know it works..
Your choice to question is valid enough, But I am not one to spin a yarn for giggles here on HF
And as to...
" Not sure what this is revolutionizing. We have quite a few self leveling systems that would pull out a heli if the beginner screws up. They work at an altitude where a beginner would start screwing up."

I have yet to find one system that can work on both fixed wing and Helicopter and can engaged automatically during conventional or 3D flight and has the capabilities to correct the aircraft's attitude back to level no matter the what position the aircraft was in and return control back to the pilot.

I'll stand corrected to anyone who can show me that this isn't the only platform to date that has these capabilities.

You want video proof..
To be sure it is forth coming..

Thanks for kicking my butt. No reason to me to expect anything different.
I understand completely why you do not want to show proof. So if you think and believe the system works as outstanding as you advertise (because you really just do advertising for the company which is not needed since it is a good company). So show and proof the way it works without accuses. If you do like using words and phrases only - maybe its not working right? Come on what is holding you or your company back? Is it hat most would see its working only at very high altitude that most do not fly? Thats speculation driven by you advertising something you are not willing to show. Come on - stop to chicken out and stop using excuses and show what it can do. 30ft is pretty high but hey if it is such exceptional it might be a cool tool.

I am open minded and do try lots of new tools/features but I distaste folks talking about stuff not even shown in video because of..... why? just scared? What for?
No reason for all that - just show it in real and stop arguing. That will help more than any words and phrases will.
So - lets see it fig you are allowed. PLEASE!!!!!

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by im4711

Thanks for kicking my butt. No reason to me to expect anything different.
I understand completely why you do not want to show proof. So if you think and believe the system works as outstanding as you advertise (because you really just do advertising for the company which is not needed since it is a good company). So show and proof the way it works without accuses. If you do like using words and phrases only - maybe its not working right? Come on what is holding you or your company back? Is it hat most would see its working only at very high altitude that most do not fly? Thats speculation driven by you advertising something you are not willing to show. Come on - stop to chicken out and stop using excuses and show what it can do. 30ft is pretty high but hey if it is such exceptional it might be a cool tool.

I am open minded and do try lots of new tools/features but I distaste folks talking about stuff not even shown in video because of..... why? just scared? What for?
No reason for all that - just show it in real and stop arguing. That will help more than any words and phrases will.
So - lets see it fig you are allowed. PLEASE!!!!!

Hi im

Rich and I both would have posted pictures last Thursday when it was announced but prior to doing that we checked with FMA for their OK. We were asked to hold off until the units were ready to be sold/shipped to the public. I personally have not videoed CoPilot HD from a pilots perspective at this time. I just had not had a need to. I don't think Rich or any of the other testing pilots have made any videos either. It really has nothing to do with the unit not working or trying to hide the altitude it was designed to works at.

As a mater of fact, FMA asked me to work with a professional photographer in the area who is also a member of my club, to produce just what you are asking for. We planned a shoot this afternoon but weather did not permit and had to be rescheduled.

Now for the reason FMA would prefer to hold off on publishing videos. There are aspects of the system that they would rather keep in house until the units hits the market. Why, because the competition may choose to copy. Showing the CoPilot HD in action in a video would reveal things that are best not revealed at this time. Same with pictures of the installed CoPilot HD unit. FMA has spent a lot of time and expense researching and developing this product. Keeping it from the eyes of the competition a little longer is a wise business decision. Wouldn't you agree?

It would not surprise me if FMA chose to not release videos until the units are available to the public. Just guessing on my part. I hope everyone will be patient and understanding.

Honestly, posting this thread, describing what we beta testers have been tinkering with, was to provide a platform to answer questions and for pilot comments and suggestions for improvements was never intended as advertisement. If it was, it was not intended.

Thanks
Jack

[Navigator53]

No secret how myself and others that have advanced their skills without the fear of crashing feel about CoPilot II.

FMA, put me down for publicly released serial # 1 on hard deck and I'll put it on the 700n, a Heli that has never had a crash in 2 years of heart pumping crash free flying.

Don't know what it will cost, but given your pricing on CP II, I'll just take one period, you already have my credit card number and shipping address, won't even consider a "knock off" CP has paid for itself many times over and I'll put my hard earned money to those that have also put their hard earned money behind this technology, can't wait
I didn't start this hobby until I was 60 (yes Rich, I'm older than you kid lol) this summer I'm working on hurricanes & inverted backward flight and yes, I do start a new manuver a ways up and go lower as I get it down.
Mel

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by salience

So it seems that in HD mode, flying below 50ft., you will be in relatively complete control for "stately flying", not doing anything acrobatic? The unit might be very useful for low altitude FPV and photography. The pilot can concentrate on the photos/videos and mostly ignore having to be instantly ready to avoid a crash.

I assume "zero altitude" is set relatively, barometrically, as the unit is turned on, so it works at any absolute altitude, such as in the mountains? Speaking of mountain flying, what happens if I try to fly down the hill, or into the crevasse, i.e., BELOW zero altitude?

Hi saliene,

Here is the response I received from FMA concerning flying below the zero altitude.

"Hi Jack,
Yes, the altimeter is zeroed at startup. Flying below zero altitude is still inside the hard deck."

So should be responding the same way it responds from 0 to 50 ft. (or what ever the hard deck is set at at the time)

Thanks
Jack

[jdd1]

Hi Guys,

When asking for a 20 or 30 ft. HD this is the response I received. It does help to make sense of why the hard deck minimum is set to 50 ft. It just is what it is.


"I suppose 20 feet would be a great hard deck altitude. However, it sometimes takes the helicopter 30 feet to recover when the vertical descent is very fast or the head speed is very low. I’m also looking at a 10 ft error on the altitude reading at times. I would like to keep the minimum altitude at 50 ft, because that leaves a margin of 10 ft above the ground in the worst case scenario.

Hard deck is kind of a peculiar feature. People will try to defeat HD thousands of times until they find just the right scenario to crash. This means millions of hard deck recoveries will occur every month with all our customers. If even HD doesn’t work just 0.1% of the time, we could have hundreds of crashes from a million HD attempts in a month if we lower the minimum altitude.

Yes, it is theoretically possible to do a 20 ft HD. But, it won’t be reliable with the current technology. We would need the reliability way up to avoid crashing. Good 3D flying at 20 ft altitude is really a predictive form of flying, not reactive. It is similar to a playback of a predetermined pattern like on a tape recorder. Imagine taking control of a heli with a buddy box when it is heading 50mph to the ground and the altitude is 20ft. Hard Deck is a reactive form of flying that has to recover from very unusual attitudes in less than 500mS. HD does not know what the intended maneuver will be. It only know the roll rate. Imagine training 3D flying at 20 ft with a buddy box. It really isn’t humanly possible. How can the instructor know what the student is attempting to do or will do incorrectly? Now imagine 3D flying with a buddy box at 50 ft. Would it be humanly possible for the instructor to recover 999 out of 1000 times? Probably not. CPII manages recoveries from 50 ft very well and usually recovers in about 500mS. I doubt that human buddy box instructors have reflexes that fast.

I don’t think HD can ever be useful for “mowing the grass” style of flying. The inertia of the helicopter forces it thru the deck. And, if the pilot is at that level of “playback” style of flying, they really don’t need HD in the first place.
The only way to do a 20 ft hard deck would be to make it ground radar based and monitor the head speed. I have looked at radar based altimeters. They still aren’t at hobby grade pricing yet. I hope you understand that 99 out of 100 recoveries isn’t acceptable for this product.

You know the ultimate HD product would be a rewind button after a crash occurs. I wanted to add such prediction into CPII. Maybe, I’ll be better at it in the future. Faster recovery times will mean less altitude loss. We know the airframes are capable of 100mS recovery times when the helicopters are really tricked out. That means the helicopters are capable of 10g accelerations if the head speed is high. "

Thanks
Jack

[jdd1]

Hi Guys,

Though some of you might be interested in the location and surrounding of my flight field where all my testing of CoPilot HD took place.

Philip does some impressive things with his video.

[ame]http://vimeo.com/39084015[/ame]

The green topped house in the trees is home. The house to the left is my daughters home.

Enjoy
Jack

[deh1955]

Jack's place is real nice to fly at. Flying in any direction so the sun is never an issue. The field is Texas sized and the people we fly with are the best. NOW if the wind would just die down some!

[runesb]

Great video