Motor/ESC Combinations

[omerco]

Originally Posted by bredler

I've found one guy who is using a Savox BSM5065-500...similar specs to the 4035 but with a little more wattage, lighter, and seems to run cooler.

Does anyone else have any experience with this motor or other Savox motors?

I and some friends have tried few Savox motors: in our experience they were hotter, less efficient and weaker than similar scorpions.

Be careful comparing pares to apples: you need to have the same gearing ratio, KV included, to really compare the motors and only then you can say which is cooler more efficient or give more flight time.

also as I wrote before - IMO and experience the Scorpion Spec for cont and pick power is underrated (by much)

For the weight - 455 compares to 460 grams?? and the Savox is more expensive.

myself I would choose the scorpion 4035 any day over the Savox, but no doubt they are not far from each other and both will do the job for a novice.

[bredler]

Originally Posted by omerco

I and some friends have tried few Savox motors: in our experience they were hotter, less efficient and weaker than similar scorpions.

I have literally never seen a motor come down as hot as a scorpion.

[omerco]

Originally Posted by bredler

I have literally never seen a motor come down as hot as a scorpion.

Another mistake many make:
scorpion motors are built with the maximum copper fill that can be put into a stator.

This gives higher torque/power. more power is always more heat. the heat comes from the losses in motor.

The max fill also lowers the ventilation.

All of this says nothing regarding efficiency because a low powered motor with lower efficiency will still be usually cooler then a more powerfull higher efficiency one. (calculate: if the efficiency is 90% than its 10% heat. multiply by the power)

more than that - our motors are built to withstand heat up to 150 deg c. at 80-85 you already almost cannot touch it so we are usually far from it.

EDIT- All that regarding the scorpion and savox motors:
The scorpion 4035 has a multi strand wind. This usually gives less room for copper.
Savox are usually single strand which gives more copper and if not completely feeled a little better cooling.

In our case the resistance is almost the same which hints of similirary in the copper.

On the other hand savox built is of lower quality (the magnetic ring is leaking) and I'm not sure the magnets are of the highest quality.

[DanMcN]

I also took advantage of the Gaui x7 sale. I had a Castle 160 and Scorpion 4530-500 I had from another heli I sold.
Test flown the x7 Christmas day and to the RC field the day after. Awesome!!

I find that Castle temp is fine but 4530 likes fresh batteries. I think the motor maybe close to a 14s setup.

What freq and timing should I be using? Scorpion 5-15 and other places 18-24??

[bredler]

Originally Posted by DanMcN

I also took advantage of the Gaui x7 sale. I had a Castle 160 and Scorpion 4530-500 I had from another heli I sold.
Test flown the x7 Christmas day and to the RC field the day after. Awesome!!

I find that Castle temp is fine but 4530 likes fresh batteries. I think the motor maybe close to a 14s setup.

What freq and timing should I be using? Scorpion 5-15 and other places 18-24??

"Likes fresh batteries" meaning your flight times/power curve over the length of a flight isn't that good? I found a great deal on a Quantum 4530-500 that I'm picking up...had intended to get something in the 4035-4525 size but the deal was too good.

[Skeezix]

Originally Posted by bredler

I have literally never seen a motor come down as hot as a scorpion.

Nail on the head.

[fastblade]

Originally Posted by omerco

I respectfully disagree with you on few things:

1. X7 weights the same as many 700 helies: we weighed that list:
My both currently weighs 5900

2. the scorpion 4035 is a very strong motor.
Everyone one's opinion is different... to me it's weak and good for an X5 in my opinion...

3. 4530 is probably the BIGGEST you want to put in it. hardly the minimum.
To each their own... not nearly big enough for me..

4. I live in Israel. Its hot here... we have many hard 3D pro pilots here. all of us use 160A ESC with very few problems. I hardly see the need for a 200A ESC unless your collective management is very rough, use too high collective pitch or over-geared (I over gear by the way...)

I live in NYC and not nearly as hot and we blow them all the time... and yes my collective management is very rough at times... that's what makes it fun!

What you see and what I see is what make people different... in my opinion... the way my X7 is set-up now with the 14s is the best ever set-up you can possibly have... not weak for sure and not to much power you start ripping things apart....just perfect... my 12s set-up just isn't strong enough for me to fly unless I take it easy....I can stall my 12s pretty easy ... not my 14s at all... again ... this is just my opinion and the way I fly...

[omerco]

1. We use different weights so you should compare the helies on the same one to say one is heavier than another. That's what we did.
2. 4035 is not strong enough for me 2 - but for a beginner?
3. If the 4530 is not big enough for you man than which one will be?? Maybe your gearing is too low? Or weak batteries?
4. On 12 cell you have to have good 60c batteries for sure. I use "real" 60c batteries. I'm sure 14 cell can deliver more consistent power.

[omerco]

Originally Posted by bredler

"Likes fresh batteries" meaning your flight times/power curve over the length of a flight isn't that good? I found a great deal on a Quantum 4530-500 that I'm picking up...had intended to get something in the 4035-4525 size but the deal was too good.

The quantum is a weak motor, unless rewinded and than it's a monster.

EDIT: just now noticed its instead of the 4035 option- will work well for you.

[omerco]

Originally Posted by DanMcN

I also took advantage of the Gaui x7 sale. I had a Castle 160 and Scorpion 4530-500 I had from another heli I sold.
Test flown the x7 Christmas day and to the RC field the day after. Awesome!!

I find that Castle temp is fine but 4530 likes fresh batteries. I think the motor maybe close to a 14s setup.

What freq and timing should I be using? Scorpion 5-15 and other places 18-24??

You need at least 11t pinion for 2100 rpm with that kv, or 12 if you fly strong or higher rpm

[fastblade]

1. We use different weights so you should compare the helies on the same one to say one is heavier than another. That's what we did. I have 2 X7's as you should see in my signature...13lbs each on the nose... 5.9kilo's
2. 4035 is not strong enough for me 2 - but for a beginner? ... don't waste $$$ and time on it...
3. If the 4530 is not big enough for you man than which one will be?? Maybe your gearing is too low? Or weak batteries? 4535 14s is perfect for this bird for me.... 10:1gear ratio on both.. 2260 hs...brand new thunderpower 70c ...
4. On 12 cell you have to have good 60c batteries for sure. I use "real" 60c batteries. I'm sure 14 cell can deliver more consistent power. ... I've been using thunderpower 70c or pulse 65c.... just don't get the power out of a 12s set-up that I like... everything is new for the most part... I buy new batteries just about every other season if I need to or not.... I'm getting 4400 7s hv graphene for next season....

[omerco]

1. what I meant is, when you say X7 is heavier than other 700 helies, you should weigh it and the other helies on the same scale. that's what we did and we find it to be very similar to others (see my first post).

3. 10:1 sounds great for 14 cell BUT very low in my opinion for that RPM on 12 cell. I'm using 2100-2150 (720mm blades) with 11 pionion (10:9.1) and YGE which gives 545KV on the ultimate. maybe you should try gearing up?
use this:
http://heli.dacsa.net/
you want to gear so your "lowest headspeed" is your target (2260) for hard flying. calculate with 45C batteries (are batteries are not really 60-70C...)
Try comparing the results between 12 cell and 14 cell and maybe it will explain why you think you need such big motors when even the stronger pilots I know are happy with a 4525 ultimate well geared...

4. same as 3 - with such batteries and a correct batteries you shouldn't have a power problem.

[DanMcN]

Fresh batteries I mean fairly new low flight count.

The kit came with a 10t pinion, My Castle 160 gov gives me out gov range about <2000 so I ordered 12t. I know that's not a big issue but... the 12t cleared the errors.

Currently installed 4530/10t, WOT sort of fell on its face on big air pass is why I chimed in.

Question: with the Castle 160, I have a 4525-520. What motor 4530/4525 and pinion combination?

My ideal headspeed is about 2100.

What is the best timing setting?

[omerco]

For 2100 with castle 10t is ok for a beginner 11t for 3D with the 4525 520.
For the 4530 it depends which kv?
Setting in castle: Pwm 12, timing is best on AUTO

[fastblade]

Originally Posted by omerco

.

1. what I meant is, when you say X7 is heavier than other 700 helies, you should weigh it and the other helies on the same scale. that's what we did and we find it to be very similar to others (see my first post).

Looks like you weighed them for me... I'm at 5.9ks on both and I doubt the scales are that different (I'm digital).. maybe .1k ... unless your using a balance beam and rocks...

3. 10:1 sounds great for 14 cell BUT very low in my opinion for that RPM on 12 cell. I'm using 2100-2150 (720mm blades) with 11 pionion (10:9.1) and YGE which gives 545KV on the ultimate. maybe you should try gearing up?
use this:
http://heli.dacsa.net/
you want to gear so your "lowest headspeed" is your target (2260) for hard flying. calculate with 45C batteries (are batteries are not really 60-70C...)
Try comparing the results between 12 cell and 14 cell and maybe it will explain why you think you need such big motors when even the stronger pilots I know are happy with a 4525 ultimate well geared...

Basing on 65c (cause that's what is available...forget your 45c/65c argument)... on the calculator it's just a little high of the sweet spot for 12s using external gov calculations... 2221/2286high ... the 14s is actually geared a little low 2208/2272... but that's okay... don't want to go up in gearing for I'd rather have the mechanical advantage...I'm more than happy with my 14s set-up... I've tried the 4525/ 850mx motors and only thing happened was getting amp spikes and shut downs on all my 160amp esc's (5 to be exact) The yep180 beeps from over amping when it comes down everytime... lol... gonna throw a 850mx-490kv in my 12s bird and run 14s on that also... I'm extremely happy with my set-ups and not having to comprise on anything... if other pilots are happy with a 4525 ... great... I was very disappointed.... now I'm happy ....

[bredler]

Originally Posted by DanMcN

Fresh batteries I mean fairly new low flight count.

Sure, I understand that much, so I suppose I should have asked a better question: what are the consequences of tired packs with the setup you mentioned? Do you bog/get short flights/overheat packs & wires?

Got some good discussion going in this thread. Looking forward to more thoughts on pinion/ESC choices for the bigger (4530) motors. I understand the basics of choosing a pinion and an ESC but don't have the real world experience.

[DanMcN]

4530-500, 10deg/ 12khz
Turnagy 5000 65c, charge int res 1-1.1ohm. Battery cell volts are good post flight. 4 minutes of flight time cool with 45% remaining.
12deg pitch, 2100 headspeed, motor, ESC, wiring all cool. IU2 2200 about 80% starts to blog.

Motor, ESC and batteries I removed from a Goblin 700 I sold, worked great. For me a new heli its FBL tuning but that hit almost right out of the box.

The only thing I changed in the Castle was the gearing and ESC protection from insensitive to the default.

[omerco]

FASTBLADE

I aim differently using Mr. Mel's calc, as I wrote:
When the motor bogs it will go down to the "lowest rpm". If I want stable rpm I aim that to be my target HS.
65c packs don't really exist in the Ah we use unfortunately. From my experience using 45c for 65c packs is more realistic.

And if you are happy and I'm happy than all is good

[omerco]

Originally Posted by bredler

Sure, I understand that much, so I suppose I should have asked a better question: what are the consequences of tired packs with the setup you mentioned? Do you bog/get short flights/overheat packs & wires?

Got some good discussion going in this thread. Looking forward to more thoughts on pinion/ESC choices for the bigger (4530) motors. I understand the basics of choosing a pinion and an ESC but don't have the real world experience.

Tired batteries will have higher internal R.
Because of that when we demand higher amps from them the voltage will drop more.
Our head speed is proportional to the Voltage - V x KV x Eficiency roughly gives the RPM. So rpm will drop more.
R when applied current will cause heat so yes batteries wil heat more.

[fastblade]

Originally Posted by omerco

FASTBLADE
And if you are happy and I'm happy than all is good

I've tried all the combos/ pinions etc... where I'm at now has definitely put a smile on my face after all the hardships I've had.... thanks for your perspective though... hopefully all this can help someone else...