DahlHouse Flightline

[dahld]

Kyle's numbers?

Main Rotor:
style - 74
agility - 100
gain - 56 (this number appears is low, but is due to the head's design and dampening scheme)

Main Rotor Expert:
parameters:
dead band - 2
elev. pre-comp -10
paddle sim. - 0
expo - 5%
optimizer:
50 / 47

Tail Rotor:
yaw rate - 120
gain - 86

Tail Rotor Expert (I'll just list the numbers vertically as they appear in the menu):
parameters:
5
60
80
55
50
30
expo - 10%
optimizer:
30/30
torque pre-comp:
22
0
0

Gov Gain: 30
Gov Expert (numbers listed vertically as they appear in the menu:
3
30
15
5

Set-up menu:
collective - 92 (not sure what that equates to as to the number of degrees +/- collective)
cyclic - 120
pitch pump - 15

Head speed for competitive flying: 2050

Caution: you may or may not like the way the helis flies with these numbers. The beauty of V-Bar...adjust to your liking.

(-: Dave

[EO19]

Thanks Dave!

[sgrim80]

Thanks Dave...that's the beauty of bank switching Going to load this in a bank and give it a shot!

[swalko]

Originally Posted by dahld

Kyle's numbers?
...
Set-up menu:
collective - 92 (not sure what that equates to as to the number of degrees +/- collective)
cyclic - 120
...

Dave, how much degrees have you on cyclic in VStabi setup? 12?

[dahld]

That maximum figure of 120 on the cyclic set-up menu works out to about 11.3 to 11.8 degrees (at least that's what we measure on Kyle's machines).

V-Bar of course suggest 8 degrees in the menu, which is a nice middle of the road figure applicable for the vast majority of flying styles (other than hard-core quick and nasty 3D flying), and ensures if you are not using the V-Bar on a Mikado heli, that the geometry of the "off brand" heli is sufficiently OK to fly well.

(-: Dave

[zguy]

Originally Posted by dahld

That maximum figure of 120 on the cyclic set-up menu works out to about 11.3 to 11.8 degrees (at least that's what we measure on Kyle's machines).

V-Bar of course suggest 8 degrees in the menu, which is a nice middle of the road figure applicable for the vast majority of flying styles (other than hard-core quick and nasty 3D flying), and ensures if you are not using the V-Bar on a Mikado heli, that the geometry of the "off brand" heli is sufficiently OK to fly well.

(-: Dave

I was going to ask the same question

Can you elaborate on the effect of increasing the value here vs. say tuning with agility and expo?

[swalko]

My experience is that bumping up agility or lowering expo does not have so big impact on roll and flip rate as bumping up cyclic throw in VStabi setup. But if you add more cyclic throw it will too add cyclic gain, then it is possible that with high cyclic throw you will have low cyclic gain values.
Another way (i prefer) how to increase roll and flip rate is to increase cyclic optimizer values.

[dahld]

Zguy,

Just as a precursor, I am NO expert in PID control loops, all my findings are just based off what I can feel, and what I can learn from the internet. So, to any PID experts out there, I know what I'm saying is probably not whats "actually" happening, but as far as I can tell it is what is "effectively" happening.

Based on what I can tell, the cyclic pitch adjustment value is not the actual hard limit value of the cyclic pitch. The hard limit of the cyclic pitch is adjusted in expert swash page by cyclic ring. I put this value to 102 to get all available movement out of the swash. Therefore, the cyclic pitch adjustment value is merely setting a "scale" to different ratios in which the vbar uses.

I have talked to the Vbar designer about this, and he says that by increasing the cyclic pitch adjustment value, you increase the scale for the different ratios and settings in the inner workings of the Vbar. So, effectively, (not actually but effectively), it is increasing the "I" gain of the PID control loop. Again I'm no expert in PID loops, but from what I can gather this basically means that the reaction time from when the Vbar sees a input from the transmitter, or an error from say wind or something causing the model to go off axis, is shorter.

So what this all boils down to, (at least from what I have felt) is that raising the cyclic pitch adjustment value makes the model much more precise and locked in. Raising it also affects some ratios regarding piro comp etc. So the model piros better as well, and since the "scale" is increased you have to lower the main gain some to compensate for the adjusted "scale".

Hope this makes sense,

Kyle

[swalko]

Dave, please can you post Kyle's TDR VStabi settings?

[dahld]

Kyle's TDR settings? Sorry, but not really. Kyle hasn't flown the TDR in quite some time, it's currently dissembled to some extent, and the V-Bar settings he was using the last time it flew, would be more or less pretty "conventional". Nothing different like on the Logo 700, as the head design and dampening of the TDR is more "conventional". And, since the TDR has been around awhile, many have "perfected" the V-Bar's settings on the TDR already.

Keep in mind that some of these "unconventional" V-Bar settings that the Team pilots have developed for the 700 (and passed on to some other pilots now flying it as well), work due to the design of the specific model. Nothing wrong with trying such on various models, but results may vary

(-: Dave

[zguy]

Originally Posted by dahld

Zguy,

Just as a precursor, I am NO expert in PID control loops, all my findings are just based off what I can feel, and what I can learn from the internet. So, to any PID experts out there, I know what I'm saying is probably not whats "actually" happening, but as far as I can tell it is what is "effectively" happening.

Based on what I can tell, the cyclic pitch adjustment value is not the actual hard limit value of the cyclic pitch. The hard limit of the cyclic pitch is adjusted in expert swash page by cyclic ring. I put this value to 102 to get all available movement out of the swash. Therefore, the cyclic pitch adjustment value is merely setting a "scale" to different ratios in which the vbar uses.

I have talked to the Vbar designer about this, and he says that by increasing the cyclic pitch adjustment value, you increase the scale for the different ratios and settings in the inner workings of the Vbar. So, effectively, (not actually but effectively), it is increasing the "I" gain of the PID control loop. Again I'm no expert in PID loops, but from what I can gather this basically means that the reaction time from when the Vbar sees a input from the transmitter, or an error from say wind or something causing the model to go off axis, is shorter.

So what this all boils down to, (at least from what I have felt) is that raising the cyclic pitch adjustment value makes the model much more precise and locked in. Raising it also affects some ratios regarding piro comp etc. So the model piros better as well, and since the "scale" is increased you have to lower the main gain some to compensate for the adjusted "scale".

Hope this makes sense,

Kyle

Great explanation Kyle. Thanks!
I'm definitely going to play with this setting now.

Question-have you experimented with many other blades?
Does increasing this setting help compensate for the narrow cord, outward CG of the stock Edge blades?
If going to the Edge SE w/ more inboard CG (or even better, a wider cord/inward CG blade), fit better with the recommended 8 deg. cyclic and head gain settings?

[dahld]

Q: "Question-have you experimented with many other blades?"

Well, I have tried a few other blades, but I'm not going to start a comparison thread (as a sponsored pilots, that's not right, and probably against the Forum rules anyway).

I'll just say that I use what I think flies the best, and what I'm flying is the Edge 713 standard FBL blades (what comes in the kit).

Kyle D.

[zguy]

Thanks Kyle and sorry, should have phrased the question better!

[Mentalic]

Took me about 20 flights on my Logo 700 to get it right and in the process I may have learned something!

Unlike my Logo 600 and Logo 600se the Logo 700 just does not like paddle sim at all!

Problem I was having is that it was very difficult to get a flat hover as you transition between upright and inverted sections of a pyroflip. After seeing Kyles set up I removed the paddle sim and just dialed in more cyclic to compensate and like magic, nice flat transitions between piroflips. Never noticed this issue on the smaller machines with softer dampening and I run a bunch of paddle sim on them.

[sgrim80]

Originally Posted by Mentalic

Took me about 20 flights on my Logo 700 to get it right and in the process I may have learned something!

Unlike my Logo 600 and Logo 600se the Logo 700 just does not like paddle sim at all!

Problem I was having is that it was very difficult to get a flat hover as you transition between upright and inverted sections of a pyroflip. After seeing Kyles set up I removed the paddle sim and just dialed in more cyclic to compensate and like magic, nice flat transitions between piroflips. Never noticed this issue on the smaller machines with softer dampening and I run a bunch of paddle sim on them.

Good stuff Wayne! Time to update that profile picture!

[Mentalic]

Originally Posted by sgrim80

Good stuff Wayne! Time to update that profile picture!

Good point! Thing is I have not been bringing them all to the field lately.

[sgrim80]

Gee I wonder why, LOL!

[futurase]

I noticed some odd things today. Today is the first day that the temps have been below 50F and I flew in about 43-45F today and I got cyclic bumping is all I call it. In piro flips and etc I was getting a bump. Hard tic tocks I did not notice anything. Really smooth flips and piro tumbles I did not notice anything.

I think the dampening doesn't like cold weather. At the bottom of autos if I milked it all the way to the ground I would get bumping right before touchdown as RPM got low.

I got NONE of that when I flew at 72F and I lowered the head gain 4 points. I was at 62 and now at 58.

I believe my dampening too new or L700 too hard for cold conditions. In really sharp moves the heli would kind of dart for a split second. Today first day it has ever done this. Can't say anything on other helis as I usually never fly below 50F.

Anyone else noticed this?

Norman Ross Jr.

[SiriusFog]

Hi!

To the Dahl family: Thanks for sharing the numbers in Post #621. Thanks for sharing! I believe Kyle's got a setup for 1800 headspeed as well?! Are there major changes or just adjustments to the tail rotor settings?

I'd love to see the numbers there.

Thx
Daniel

[dahld]

@ SiriusFog,

FWIW, on Kyle's competition machines (which he flies most of the time), he doesn't use any bank switching, so there's no V-Bar changes when he flight modes into another head speed. He flies all head speeds with the same numbers (-:

(-: Dave