Sorry guys, I give up... will move back to V-Bar...

[ddhuans]

After almost 6 months and hundreds of flights with both two iKON in my fleet, been tried my iKON on several helicopters which I borrow from my friend but I cant tune my iKON to match with my style. I dont know what the problem is.
Asked for the helps from Dave, Chris Sexton and Alex Ross but I cant make my iKON piro smoothly like V-Bar. I dont blame anyone, I just blame myself that why I cant adjust it while many
Been tried 2 of my iKON on Goblin 500, Goblin 500 stretched w/ 520mm blades, Goblin 630, Logo 500/600SX, T-Rex 450, Gaui X3, Mini Protos, Protos 500, and adjusted many parameters, one by one to see the effect when chaging them but cant help.
I used several of FBL unit: 3GX, BeastX, Mini and Standard VBar, SK720, SK540, KDS Ebar but no FBL have this weird behavior.
When I do pyro flip, feel like the heli dont follow my command and tried to against my command, seem like it want to "stable" back instead of flip . Pyro funnel is no problem.
Only Protos 500 and Mini Protos is works great with it. Just load the default setting, adjust the roll/tail rate and they fly very well, not more tuning.

[tshelby73]

Maybe you have defective unit. My unit flies great but I am switching it out so my e700 matches the rest of my fleet. Although it flies great I like the feel of my vbar better, others like the snap off center of the ikon. I feel the vbar does piro better I can't do piro flips but Pogo's upright or inverted stay in one place longer on vbar especially in the wind. The biggest thing I notice is the flow feel is different between the 2.

[OnTheSnap]

It's the weirdest problem description I've ever heard. "Wants to go back level during a piro flip". Guess I'd have to fly it to understand. If the Heli is moving uncommanded, you have an insanely bad problem.

If it's just not connecting with you on a feel level then it makes sense. But your description makes it sound like self leveling is on full time.

If you want to ship me your least favorite Heli I would be happy to give it m best shot to understand. Also post your config file unless you are jst done and moving on.

[ddhuans]

Originally Posted by tshelby73

Maybe you have defective unit. My unit flies great but I am switching it out so my e700 matches the rest of my fleet. Although it flies great I like the feel of my vbar better, others like the snap off center of the ikon. I feel the vbar does piro better I can't do piro flips but Pogo's upright or inverted stay in one place longer on vbar especially in the wind. The biggest thing I notice is the flow feel is different between the 2.

I tried my 2 unit but has the same problem

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

It's the weirdest problem description I've ever heard. "Wants to go back level during a piro flip". Guess I'd have to fly it to understand. If the Heli is moving uncommanded, you have an insanely bad problem.

If it's just not connecting with you on a feel level then it makes sense. But your description makes it sound like self leveling is on full time.

If you want to ship me your least favorite Heli I would be happy to give it m best shot to understand. Also post your config file unless you are jst done and moving on.

Alex, thank you for that, I'm really appreciate that and it would be great if you can help me tune my machine. Unfortunately, I'm not in US for now and will not back to US for a long time so I can send my machine to you. I dont know how to describe the feeling clearly, as English is not my native language. I have just flown it 1 hour ago to capture this video, please have a look and please help me. Thank you in advance.
You can see the heli is very hard to pyro, although it's pyro flat and constant. Thanks again.

[mamartin]

I think I may understand what your trying to describe and from watching your videos I think I may...

When I was first figuring out my iKON's I would notice a similar feeling as to what your describing when I would get my basic head gain slider raised too high.
Too me and what I feel when I fly I personally like it locked in but still fluid sort of and when it got too high it when I would stir it was like I felt like I was having to force it over from inverted to upright and vice versa as it was pirouetting.
If you haven't already tried it yet try lowering the head gain a bit in the basic menus and see what you think from there.



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[kthane]

+1 on high head gain. Never touched it my 2 nitros, i tried raising 5 points on my 700e. This felt all wrong in piro flips. It lost it's fluidness and seems to fight my attempts get it steered over on its back and up right again. Kind of like having tail gain that is too high for the down leg of piro loop. Tries too hard to keep steady piro and it becomes unnatural and stiff feeling.

No need to apoligize for going with a V-Bar. If they fly great right out of the box, I see no need to monkey with an Ikon.

[ddhuans]

Originally Posted by mamartin

I think I may understand what your trying to describe and from watching your videos I think I may...

When I was first figuring out my iKON's I would notice a similar feeling as to what your describing when I would get my basic head gain slider raised too high.
Too me and what I feel when I fly I personally like it locked in but still fluid sort of and when it got too high it when I would stir it was like I felt like I was having to force it over from inverted to upright and vice versa as it was pirouetting.
If you haven't already tried it yet try lowering the head gain a bit in the basic menus and see what you think from there.



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Originally Posted by kthane

+1 on high head gain. Never touched it my 2 nitros, i tried raising 5 points on my 700e. This felt all wrong in piro flips. It lost it's fluidness and seems to fight my attempts get it steered over on its back and up right again. Kind of like having tail gain that is too high for the down leg of piro loop. Tries too hard to keep steady piro and it becomes unnatural and stiff feeling.

No need to apoligize for going with a V-Bar. If they fly great right out of the box, I see no need to monkey with an Ikon.

Wow, yes, yes, seem like that is what I feel!
But lower the gain is the 1st thing I think when I got this issue. I have tried to lower P-I-D gain one by one to learn how the flight characteristics change. It did help, but when I can do pyroflip smoothly, the heli completely loose - no lock in feeling.
Also I setup my iKON and heli very carefully. Cyclic throw never over 9.5 degree, pitch always below 13, and positive and negative collective throw is equal too.
Right now with my X3, I have the P gain is only 9, feed forward is 40, I is 45. This is the best setting I have for now so I can do piroflip with iKON, but the feeling is not right (((

[kthane]

What about raising the agility?

[ddhuans]

Originally Posted by kthane

What about raising the agility?

I tried! It help a bit but not much, as I selected the hard 3D profile from the start so it already 90/100

[alexf1852]

Originally Posted by ddhuans

Wow, yes, yes, seem like that is what I feel!
But lower the gain is the 1st thing I think when I got this issue. I have tried to lower P-I-D gain one by one to learn how the flight characteristics change. It did help, but when I can do pyroflip smoothly, the heli completely loose - no lock in feeling.
Also I setup my iKON and heli very carefully. Cyclic throw never over 9.5 degree, pitch always below 13, and positive and negative collective throw is equal too.
Right now with my X3, I have the P gain is only 9, feed forward is 40, I is 45. This is the best setting I have for now so I can do piroflip with iKON, but the feeling is not right (((

When I look at the above settings, what stands out as way off is your P-gain of 9 and Feed Foward of 40. Is this a typo?

[kthane]

Hard 3D, eh? Seems far removed from your flying. Granted we didn't see much, but it was enough to say hard 3d seems wrong for you. Seems like a lot work from there to something useful in technical flying.

[ddhuans]

Originally Posted by alexf1852

When I look at the above settings, what stands out as way off is your P-gain of 9 and Feed Foward of 40. Is this a typo?

No, it's not a typo. I have P gain on ail is 9 and ele is 12
my Feed forward is 40-45
roll rate is 435
no expo.

[mamartin]

It may be worth defaulting the unit and starting over.
Those values seem like they would be way off for most all helis.

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[alexf1852]

Originally Posted by ddhuans

No, it's not a typo. I have P gain on ail is 9 and ele is 12
my Feed forward is 40-45
roll rate is 435
no expo.

With feed forward so high and P-gain so low, your gyro is not doing much work. It's going to feel like the gyro is not doing what you command it to or its response lags quite a bit to your input. The P-gain controls the rate at which the control loop tracks your input. The higher the P-gain, the faster the control loop tracks your input. If you have too much, then the control loop will react too fast and also pick up any little movement as intended movement and amplify it. Every heli's gain is going to be different depending on the heli, setup, resolution of servos, etc.

I would suggest you start with default values for your heli. I thought I remember reading that Thomas said the P-gain affects your I & D gains. And if the P-gain is too low, your I & D gains won't have much of an effect.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by ddhuans

I tried my 2 unit but has the same problem



Alex, thank you for that, I'm really appreciate that and it would be great if you can help me tune my machine. Unfortunately, I'm not in US for now and will not back to US for a long time so I can send my machine to you. I dont know how to describe the feeling clearly, as English is not my native language. I have just flown it 1 hour ago to capture this video, please have a look and please help me. Thank you in advance.
You can see the heli is very hard to pyro, although it's pyro flat and constant. Thanks again.

Your piroflips look fine and well controlled. So the video doesn't tell me anything. Just that you don't like the feel.

I will add this which is off topic and feel free to ignore - You use a very slow piro rate in your piro flips. So it's more of a "piro morph" action vs a smaller smoother stir if you had a faster piro rate. You have good control, so going to a faster tail rate is the logical next step. Which will help your overall flow during the maneuver. I run my tail at 580, and max the rudder during my piroflips. I'd guess you are in the low 400's,

Back on topic - Well my guess is you are addicted to paddle sim on vBar. All the Mikado pilots I know personally and fly with (Jacob, jesse, and Kyle) run with paddle sim off. But if you like that ultra reactive off center feel, instead of a more linear natural one, then you need a system with paddle sim. No way to make a system without it emulate that effect.

If you are currently flying both vbar and ikon at the same time on different models, well there is your main problem. You need to pick one system and stick with it. You will adapt to the consistent feel of one system or the other and master it. Switching back and forth is very detrimental to you as a pilot. It's bad enough switching sizes alone.

For a while I flew both, and it was a mess. Gave up on vBar and just flew the brain iKon. It's very hard for your muscle memory to efective adapt between systems. You can fly both, but one or the other will end up uncomfortable, depending on which system you fly most.

[ddhuans]

Originally Posted by alexf1852

With feed forward so high and P-gain so low, your gyro is not doing much work. It's going to feel like the gyro is not doing what you command it to or its response lags quite a bit to your input. The P-gain controls the rate at which the control loop tracks your input. The higher the P-gain, the faster the control loop tracks your input. If you have too much, then the control loop will react too fast and also pick up any little movement as intended movement and amplify it. Every heli's gain is going to be different depending on the heli, setup, resolution of servos, etc.

I would suggest you start with default values for your heli. I thought I remember reading that Thomas said the P-gain affects your I & D gains. And if the P-gain is too low, your I & D gains won't have much of an effect.

Oh...I dont know this. I just want to lower the gain and increase the feed forward to gain more control with my heli. Thank you for this great info!

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Your piroflips look fine and well controlled. So the video doesn't tell me anything. Just that you don't like the feel.

I will add this which is off topic and feel free to ignore - You use a very slow piro rate in your piro flips. So it's more of a "piro morph" action vs a smaller smoother stir if you had a faster piro rate. You have good control, so going to a faster tail rate is the logical next step. Which will help your overall flow during the maneuver. I run my tail at 580, and max the rudder during my piroflips. I'd guess you are in the low 400's,

Back on topic - Well my guess is you are addicted to paddle sim on vBar. All the Mikado pilots I know personally and fly with (Jacob, jesse, and Kyle) run with paddle sim off. But if you like that ultra reactive off center feel, instead of a more linear natural one, then you need a system with paddle sim. No way to make a system without it emulate that effect.

If you are currently flying both vbar and ikon at the same time on different models, well there is your main problem. You need to pick one system and stick with it. You will adapt to the consistent feel of one system or the other and master it. Switching back and forth is very detrimental to you as a pilot. It's bad enough switching sizes alone.

For a while I flew both, and it was a mess. Gave up on vBar and just flew the brain iKon. It's very hard for your muscle memory to efective adapt between systems. You can fly both, but one or the other will end up uncomfortable, depending on which system you fly most.

Thank you,
That's make sense. You right Alex, I try to increase Feed Forward, Agility and lower the gain to have the paddle sim effect, tried to adjust my iKON to have to same feeling as VBar too. My paddle sim is about 15-25 depend on the size of heli I fly.
You right about my tail rate, it's 460. Thank you for your tips about the piroflips. I used to have 2 450 heli with vbar and iKON, but now I will focus on my X3 and iKON. Will reset to default 450 setting and tuning it again this weekend. Will let you know the result!
Thank you very much for the help!

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by ddhuans

Oh...I dont know this. I just want to lower the gain and increase the feed forward to gain more control with my heli. Thank you for this great info!



Thank you,
That's make sense. You right Alex, I try to increase Feed Forward, Agility and lower the gain to have the paddle sim effect, tried to adjust my iKON to have to same feeling as VBar too. My paddle sim is about 15-25 depend on the size of heli I fly.
You right about my tail rate, it's 460. Thank you for your tips about the piroflips. I used to have 2 450 heli with vbar and iKON, but now I will focus on my X3 and iKON. Will reset to default 450 setting and tuning it again this weekend. Will let you know the result!
Thank you very much for the help!

Glad we got to the bottom of it and understand the issue. Initially I was totally clueless and learned a lot. Thanks!

[ddhuans]

Hd 12 flights this weekend.
For short, I load the 450 default setup, remove expo in advance setup, increase the tail rate, tail I-gain, move the cyclic P-gain back to default, and set aileron P-gain equal to elevator P-gain.
I'm not really love to piro with high rate, and a fan of low RPM, but after increase the tail rate, I realize that the main problem is the cyclic is a little slow (or lag) with my input. feel like cyclic "lost sync" with the tail while I doing piroflips. When I increase the cyclic P-gain back, it helps a lot! After that I also increase feed forward 10 point to make the feeling better.
For now, it's almost perfect. But when heli level and I pump the pitch up and down hard, heli is not level in elevator. Nose is up when added pos pitch and goes down in neg pitch... want to increase the I-gain but afraid it will affect to my perfect piroflips feeling for now. Will save this setup and try to tuning I and D-gain next time.
Thank you very much for the help, guys!

[ddhuans]

You right Alex. I dont touch any machine with VBar and BeastX in my fleet. Feel much better when tuning the iKON this time.
One funny thing is, when I plugged in the battery for the next flights, my friend has just arrived our field. My X3 has the canopy cover the back so he did not know that I installed my iKon back instead of VBar as usual. He have not flown for weeks so I asked him take and fly my X3. After fly, I ask how my VBar setup? He answered very nice and discoverd that he flew with iKon later
At my field, people only fly with VBar and BeastX. Only me have iKon!

[huanbuihd]

Originally Posted by ddhuans

You right Alex. I dont touch any machine with VBar and BeastX in my fleet. Feel much better when tuning the iKON this time.
One funny thing is, when I plugged in the battery for the next flights, my friend has just arrived our field. My X3 has the canopy cover the back so he did not know that I installed my iKon back instead of VBar as usual. He have not flown for weeks so I asked him take and fly my X3. After fly, I ask how my VBar setup? He answered very nice and discoverd that he flew with iKon later
At my field, people only fly with VBar and BeastX. Only me have iKon!