Hard deck - stupid human tricks

[ticedoff8]

I went out to the flight line and started to spool up my Trex 600E.

As the head speed got faster, the heli sluggishly started to lift off.

There was no control of collective and as the head speed got faster, so did the climb rate.

Just as I was about to switch into throttle hold (when in doubt, hit throttle hold), I checked the 3-way switch assigned to "Switch 1" in the GPS - it was in position #3 - Hard Deck.
I flipped the switch back to position #1 - Manual.
Now, I had full control of collective - except the collective stick was almost full down.

I managed to get back into some semblance of normal just in time and didn't rekit the heli.

I decided two things:
Add checking that switch to my pre-spoolup checklist
Change the Hard Deck to Position Hold. Just in case I forget.

That was the first time I ever tested / tried Hard Deck.
I guess it was setup correctly.

[omerco]

Yep - Georgi already done that type of takeoff some time back. works fine...

[Xrayted]

Originally Posted by ticedoff8

I went out to the flight line and started to spool up my Trex 600E.

As the head speed got faster, the heli sluggishly started to lift off.

There was no control of collective and as the head speed got faster, so did the climb rate.

Just as I was about to switch into throttle hold (when in doubt, hit throttle hold), I checked the 3-way switch assigned to "Switch 1" in the GPS - it was in position #3 - Hard Deck.
I flipped the switch back to position #1 - Manual.
Now, I had full control of collective - except the collective stick was almost full down.

I managed to get back into some semblance of normal just in time and didn't rekit the heli.

I decided two things:
Add checking that switch to my pre-spoolup checklist
Change the Hard Deck to Position Hold. Just in case I forget.

That was the first time I ever tested / tried Hard Deck.
I guess it was setup correctly.

Yes, I've also had this exact same scary moment when the heli goes autonomous on spool up!

I now have a warning set in my DX9 on power up if any of the GPS switches are anywhere but in manual position.

I don't understand why the firmware can't be set so that hard deck rescue will not be activated until it senses that the model has actually flown above the set hard deck for the first time? It knows its altitude since power up, and FBL unit knows its in ground mode and has never taken off, so why do a deck rescue when its obviously not even flying in order to crash in the first place?

This current functionality we have now serves no purpose other than destroy the model or possibly get someone hurt, but it will only happen to you once after you get crap scared out of you the first time.

[dcope17]

I assume that it will fly to the set deck then position hold if you just leave it alone and finish its autonomous flight to the deck level. I know it would be nice for it to function as Xrayted said... But we do have the most feature rich FBL on the market so far and from a small company. I give them a little grace since they do so much with so little ( compared to other popular FBL manufacturers )
Not to say that you need to do the same as me... Everyone's different.

[Xrayted]

Originally Posted by dcope17

I assume that it will fly to the set deck then position hold if you just leave it alone and finish its autonomous flight to the deck level. I know it would be nice for it to function as Xrayted said... But we do have the most feature rich FBL on the market so far and from a small company. I give them a little grace since they do so much with so little ( compared to other popular FBL manufacturers )
Not to say that you need to do the same as me... Everyone's different.

Yes that is all that will happen "if" the GPS is set up properly and functioning as it should.

What happens though when the model is being tested for the first time by a new GPS user who hasn't yet vetted the system to know of the compass or position hold is working correctly? There is a lot to think about when first learning all the GPS features, and one could easily power up not realizing that the deck was active, or that this will even happen if so.

Now we have a model that may not go straight up and hold nicely, but rather veer off in some random direction as soon as the skids leave the ground, keeping in mind the pilot has zero control from the TX when this is happening other than TH or switching back into normal mode. Something like this happens so fast you could get caught off guard and don't have time to realize what is going on until its too late.

I agree its a great unit with a lot of features and I love mine! I think the chances are slim for some serious event to occur like this and would require many pilot errors to happen, but it could happen and is a potential safety issue.

[PassinThru]

Been there too. Agree this should be improved or new users are gonna continue to get this surprise.

[WIHLNER]

skookum could maybe Solve it easy by making the swashplate pump up and down slowly if you turn on the radio with any gps/rescue mode activated switch like Align did on the Aps gyro.


Thomas

[Luvmyhelis]

I do like the fact we can have the tx warn us if any switch is active myself. I dropped my virgin Triabolo 800 down hard about 2 years ago and caused some significant damage when the deck was armed at spool up by mistake. Much the reason I bought my DS-16 Jeti! Now the tx can warn me if 'any' toggle is not in the correct position during arming or booting up the heli. And yeah, mine went into an instant uncontrolled take off and was piro'ing as it began to spool up. I browned my shorts while hitting TH, and watched my heli drop, bend the skids and do the blade strike routine. The repair cost was staggering.
Totally my fault!

[GaryDT]

I have some pre-order combo deals on order. When I get them (which I'm really excited about) I'll be using my DX9 to warn me if any switches are in the wrong position. I already have it warn me for throttle hold, stunt mode, and banks, and it's fabulous. The DX9 actually doesn't properly finish turning on until I correct the switch positions, which makes it even more safe than just having a warning.

[ticedoff8]

The problem was not related to initial power on of the radio.
At some point, between the pits and the flight line, I bumped the switch into the Alt Hold mode.
No voice prompts are associated with that switch.

As soon as I armed and enabled the ECS - up, up & away.

[GaryDT]

I suppose I'll probably end up setting voice alerts for all the switches that control the relevant SK-720 features, which is one of the things I like about the DX9

[CZorzella]

This is an old thread, but the issue still there.

I've also had this exact same scary moment when the heli goes autonomous on spool up a couple of weeks ago. Identically to what the OP has described in his experience, I also managed to save my 600, but this thing didn't come off my head, specially because the heli flew behind the flight line!

The reason for reviving this thread is to ask Skookum to develop a more effective protection and make it available yet with the next firmware update.

As a reference, there is an old Hard Deck system known as Co-Pilot II, that has a perfect protection and that I'd love to see it also available for our Skookum Hard Deck system. (BTW, I have the CPII+HD installed in my 500 and I love how it works!)

Arming Hard Deck Emergency Recovery
Hard Deck Emergency Recovery cannot occur until after Hard Deck Flight Mode is Armed. This is generally done near the beginning of the flight. Arming is accomplished by flying the helicopter to an altitude of 30' or more. This is a built in safe guard to prevent an unexpected ER while spooling up a helicopter on the ground.

What Happens at Takeoff
If a heli pilot enables the Hard Deck Flight Mode before take off or during his initial ascent, then ONLY AFTER at the 30’ arming altitude, CPII will begin to gradually “pull” the aircraft up to the Hard Deck Altitude to let him know where the Hard Deck altitude is set.

Carlos

[Skookum]

Ok, how about if the GPS modes won't enable if it finds that switch position at bootup?

[CZorzella]

Originally Posted by Skookum

Ok, how about if the GPS modes won't enable if it finds that switch position at bootup?

Not that simple, Art.

Like others have reported in this thread, its not a matter of having the switches at correct position during the bootup of transmitter or FBL. For instance, I have my DX18 configured in such a way that it prevents any RF transmission in case that any of the switches aren't in the correct position and even so, I made the mistake of pressing the momentary switch that activates the bailout/emergency recovery while spooling up the heli. It was enough to cause the FBL to take ownership of the heli.

What we need is an effective way to prevent human errors and that's exactly what I described in my previous post.

I suggest that ANY of the GPS modes can only be enabled once the heli gets to higher altitude than whatever altitude is set for the hard deck, regardless of what the switches position are.

Carlos

[Xrayted]

+1

A change to this potentially dangerous behavior has been needed since product release.

The reported issues so far seem to all be related to deck rescue. There is absolutely no need for the unit to attempt a deck rescue upward if the model has never left the ground in the first place to be rescued.

What I'm not sure of is how "rescue now" would behave in the same scenario? Wouldn't it likely also have the same potential to shoot the model upward as soon as their is sufficient rotor RPM, especially considering this feature can be activated anywhere, even below any set hard deck?

If so, then it seems we would need to be mindful of programming any GPS fail safe at high deck rescue altitudes. A 3D guy may have his deck set to 10M, but take off and start flying 3D below the set deck and rescue now wouldn't be active for him when needed because he forgot and never crossed over first to activate the GPS functions.

It's easy enough to do as Carlos and I have suggested in this thread with the hard deck feature and simply not allow it to arm itself until the model has crossed that set altitude for the first time, assuming deck rescue is the only feature that exhibits this bad behavior.

[dogbreath]

Something similar to: logical function of hard deck on AND throttle off EQUALs double swash pump every 15 sec?

Dan

[Xrayted]

Maybe something as simple as a flashing blue/red LED instead of a solid blue anytime a GPS feature is detected as active on power up? This would be similar to the red/green high vibe warning which is easy to identify as an error state. The GPS lock and solid blue would simply not occur and give the swash pump go ahead until rectified.

I know the GPS itself flashes slow blue until a lock is obtained and then goes solid, and I'm not sure about others, but I look only at the bright LED to change from green to solid blue as an indicator that it's safe to take off.

[CZorzella]

Originally Posted by Xrayted

Maybe something as simple as a flashing blue LED instead of a solid blue after lock anytime a GPS feature is detected as active while on the ground?

I know the GPS itself flashes slow blue until a lock is obtained and then goes solid, and I'm not sure about others, but I look only at the bright LED to change from green to solid blue as an indicator that it's safe to take off.

It would be nice to have the Blue or Green led flashing while the hard deck can't be armed. Once you fly over the deck's altitude, then the led stops flashing and resume to whatever the status of GPS lock is.

[Xrayted]

Yes, a flashing LED warning of some sort could also be combined with not allowing the deck rescue to occur until passing through the set deck to begin with, but rescue now along with all position hold modes would need to be excluded from those rules for reasons stated above, so there could still be potential for problems.

I think some not using deck features would not be happy if they always first have to fly above a certain high altitude on every flight before any of the other GPS features will work.

The more I think about it, the more I feel it would just be safer and simpler from a programming standpoint to show a warning sequence on boot up, and not allow any GPS lock or functionality unless the system sees "manual" as the switch setting for both GPS feature switches.

[georgi UK]

Originally Posted by Xrayted

Yes, a flashing LED warning of some sort could also be combined with not allowing the deck rescue to occur until passing through the set deck to begin with, but rescue now along with all position hold modes would need to be excluded from those rules for reasons stated above, so there could still be potential for problems.

I think some not using deck features would not be happy if they always first have to fly above a certain high altitude on every flight before any of the other GPS features will work.

The more I think about it, the more I feel it would just be safer and simpler from a programming standpoint to show a warning sequence on boot up, and not allow any GPS lock or functionality unless the system sees "manual" as the switch setting for both GPS feature switches.

=] this being the most practical solution so far Tony, like an ESC doesn't arm with active throttle.....