Want ESC for minimum 8s a123 / 7s Lipo.

[Mercuriell]

Kgfly also suggest that I add balance taps, I use a Fligth Power v-ballance on my lipo, I belive in ballancing, I was not sure a123 needed balancing, but what balancers to bay for a123?

I have just snipped off the balance taps on my 8S (used into two linked e-station balancers into a 902 charger) as I found they just weren't necessary but for my next 10S pack I am going to put on two TP 6 pin plugs and put them into the A & B group sockets on a TP 210 balancer

8s A123, 600L(1620kv) motor, 10t pinion may be a viable setup. The only downside is shorter flights (3 to 5 minutes is my guess). Mercurial reported that he ran that setup in an earlier post.

Checking the FDR graphs up to 6 mins for gentle scale type flight dropping to about 5 mins for more energetic sport flight.

As soon as I can get my new HDX Rotorworkx frames together I'm going to try the Neu 1515/1.5Y/F motor (1500kV) with A123 10S with 10t steel pinion

[csell]

Hello.

First, I am very happy that, both Mercuriell and Waelo now report more exact fligthtimes and there are both longer than we expected. Now I am sure, there is no reasen, not to go for a a123 setup.

As I understand you Waelo, your setup is temporary until you deceide to bay a new motor. But have you considered to try to lower the ESC temperature until then? I don't expect that you stop flying.

I have been working with electronics for many years, and electronic components also heat up. May be not for you in your situation, but for others following this tread: Will a higher current ESC be a better solution? I am not sure, I think the ekstra heat is generated due to the trottle is limited to 75%, and not just normal heat due to high current in the ESC working inside its normal envelope.

Have you considered to improve cooling. I don't know where you mounted it, can it be moved to a place with better cooling?

Some time ago I saw a picture of a another ESC with a ekstra heatsink on, actually he mounted a CC HV85 heatsink on the other ESC to improve cooling. May be a heatsink from a PC's CPU for a CPU some year old will work? When I mount heatsinks I always use a termal heatpaste/compound to fasten it.

It will only be a very temporary solution, just some idea to consider?



You tell me that every balancer works with a123, I have a V-BALANCE

http://www.flightpower.co.uk/Product...ALCOMPLETE.pdf

On page 3 I read under: Safety Features and Specifications:

The V-Balance system adds an element of safety to the charging system and will prevent: Over-charging above 4.21V per cell (highest cell),

FlightPower use 4.21v I think other brands limit is a little higher.


Several internet shops selling Hyperion EOS LBA10 NET BALANCER writes as this one: "Now works with A123 (M1) packs. 2S to 6S" I just picked a link to one of them:

http://www.ejf.com/index.php?main_pa...roducts_id=313

So my questens are: For a ballancer with a voltage limit on 4.21 or
higher for LIPO, how and when to use it for a123?

If the Hyperion EOS LBA10 NET BALANCER Now works with A123 (M1) packs.
What about the old ones? Do anybody know if they changes anything and may be what?

Can we expect a new series of balancers for a123 with lower shut off voltage in the shops?


I began to look into NEU motors. The truth is I find it a little difficult. So many
different type numbers to search for on helifreak and google. And what is the difference.

Hope some of you can give me some recomendation and tell me why you recomend it? May be your brother in law use it or some thing else.

But I will give some links to where I started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushle...electric_motor

Under "Variations on construction" I read that: Although efficiency is greatly affected by the motor's construction, the wye winding is normally more efficient

So I will start to look on the NEU type Y motors.

The NEU Helimotors: http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/Heli%20Motors.html

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Carsten,

Interesting idea to try to improve the cooling on the ESC but the motor is also getting hot. As you know, heating is related to the square of the current. Running at low throttle means higher peak currents (as explained in the CC FAQ link above). Even 10% higher current means 21% more heat generated, 20% more current means 44% more heat. I am not sure you could improve the cooling enough on both the motor and ESC to compensate for the increased losses.

Balancers
There are two kinds of charge-through balancers. The smarter ones, like the VBalancer, will indepedently terminate the charge if any one cell goes over the threshold. The more common ones provide the per-cell voltage data to the charger via the datalink cable and leave it up to the charger to terminate the charge if needed. With the first kind, there will have to be some way to tell them that you are charging A123 cells so that they can adjust to a 3.71V threshold. With the second kind so long as the charger is running an A123 program and the datalink is in place, the protection is provided by the charger. I don't know which kind of behaviour the LBA10 provides, certainly at least the second, but maybe the first as well. The only manual I could find for the LBA10 (dated 2006-07-29) describes on the second kind of behaviour and makes no mention of A123 cells.

So you either need a charger that has an A123 program together with a charge-through balancer that connects to the charger's data port OR a charge-through balancer that knows about the A123 threshold voltage AND can independently terminate the charge.

Neu motors
From what I can see of the specifcations, if you want:

* freedom to run on 10s - 15s A123
* fit T600 frame without modifications

then I think the Neu 1515/2YF is the one to choose.

[Mercuriell]

The Hyperion LBA10 has a port for linking two balancers to cope with >6S but doesn't have a data port for the charger like the Bantam PB6 and TP 210. As the A123 are much more tolerant of over/undercharging the LiPo limits of 3/4.2V provide some degree of protection if used as a charge-through but as Ken says a charger with a LiFe mode is more satisfactory.

All the 15 series of Neu motor will fit without modification. The wind type Y or D affects the timing but I am not sure how it affects performance. The F suffix for Finned is desirable for all heli motors and as for the kV rating the 1515/2Y with 1100 kV rating would seem to be a little slow for 10S A123 and would need a 12t pinion to give a medium HS of ~2000 - maybe the 1515/3D/F (1300kV) might be more suitable giving a 1700-2300 HS with a 10t depending on load.

[kgfly]

John, The 1100kv was chosen to meet Carsten's requirement to be able to run on either 10s or 13s. I think that the 1300kv motor would need something less than a 10t pinion to run on 13s and hence does not meet his requirements.

I agree that the 1100kv motor would need a 12t/13t pinion on 10s and 10t/11t on 13s. Since all these pinion sizes are available do you see any problem running with them ?

[csell]

Hello

I have been looking at what size brushless motor can be mounted in a standard frame witout modifications?

I meassured the inside width of mine T-Rex 600 CF at different places:

Bottom back = 47,3 mm
Bottom front = 47,3 mm
Top front = 46,9 mm

I don't know if the motor is allowed to touch the frame, or it is nessary to have 1-2 mm space in each side. or the inside width can be increased a little?

I have for the moment my Align 600L motor mounted, I meassured how mush longer a new motor can be compared to the 600L. I meassured it can be up to 22 mm longer. So max new length is = 65 + 22 = 87 mm.

And the 87 mm is absolute max. If somebody else select one of the others motors with a length of 83 mm, I highly recomend that you make the measurement yourself.


Zpower Z50B will fit:

But the only place I found so far to bay a Zpower Brushless Motors Z50B-10S 800KV 2000W is:

http://www.rcdepot.com.tw/advanced_s...r+z50&x=11&y=7

Acording to http://coinmill.com/TWD_calculator.html is 4225 TWD or NTD$ equal to 128.79 USD


Zpower Z50 may be the same as Thunder Tiger 2380 OBL 49/08-50:

I atually ask a shop to meassure the diameter for me, they meassured it to 48.6 mm in diameter and a length of 61 mm. Will it be possiable to bend and make others work to have it fit in the frame? I ask you?


NEU Motors:

I think the 19nn serie is out, there are at least 3 mm to wide.
The 1521 is to long for my liking, so left is the 1515 that acording to kgfly
table will fit and that is confirmed by Mercuriell. It is also the most expencive of the
NEU with a MSRP of $299

With this information I better understand why some people cut in the frames:

I saw this new tread: https://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=42761

But I hope there are other solutions than using a dremal.

In this tread we also makes links to god easy understanding background documentation. I will suggest if some know a god description on how to cut in the frame, please post it here, I think somebody reading this tread will consider to do it.

To Mercuriell and Kgfly comments, I will agree, why do I not just do as all the others. but I like to understand why others are doing it the way they do and may be a123 makes it different.

For the moment I have a Aligh 600L, if I bay a new motor I will like to have one that can been run on a higher number of a123 cells than the 600L. 8s a123 can run the 600L, so I will prefer one for 10s and up. That was I am aiming for, may be it is possiable may be not.

I don't know the answer yet and if some pinion experts just tell me not to go for the higher numer of teeths or any other argument against it, I must reconsider.

Regards Carsten

[JesusFreak]

Get the Rotorworkz HFEX Frames and be done with it. Then you can pick the motor you like. If your going to all this trouble, what's another 100 and change for a really nice Frame?

I'm working on the same setup. I want to use the A123 packs. What's the total Mah on the A123 10S pack? What's the trade off between the 1515 Neu and the 19nn series?

Where's the best place to get the batteries?

This is great information guys?

Thanks!
Lee

[kgfly]

I found specs on TTR2380 Ripper Outrunner Heli OBL 49/08-50H (US$136) here:
http://www.thundertiger4u.com/ripper...c4ebe819e5b51f

Voltage range: 8~10s cells Li-poly
KV rating: 770 RPM/V
Max efficient current: 4~60A
Max surge current: 80A / 5s
Shaft diameter: 5 mm / 0.197 in.
Dimensions ø x L: 49 x 61 mm / 1.929 x 2.4 in.
Weight: 355 g. / 12.52 oz.

I added it to the table above. It seems slightly different to the Z50B. From Carsten's measurements of the frame it does not seem it would fit.

[Mercuriell]

What's the total Mah on the A123 10S pack? What's the trade off between the 1515 Neu and the 19nn series?

All A123 cells are currently 2300mAh per cell - hence the desire to increase the voltage to prolong flight times.

I haven't tried the 1900 series but received this PM from lakespinner2:

Hi John,

Odd you mentioned the 1515/1.5Y, I just flew mine for the first time yesterday. It's charlie's HFE frames with a CC85hv and 8s-3700 flightpower batts.

I also have another 8s rex with a 1910 motor, the original 1910 motor without the new fan casing.

I stuck an 11 T pinion on the 1515, I think I read HC was using a 12 but I don't need 2800 rpms.

Anyway, the 1515 is WAY more powerful than my 1910. I have the new one running around 2180 rpm and I accidentally had about 18 degrees of positive pitch (forgot to disable the pitch slider on my 9303 radio when I set it up and it moved in route to the field. I just finished setting up the head again, I can't believe I forgot to turn off that slider). With about 18 degrees, it STILL didn't seem to bog on climbouts. I'm not really sure I ever got it to full stick because it was just zooming skyward and I was afraid to inject any more power. I think I'm finally going to have 'enough' power.

It was drawing more current (120+ amps) in the climbs than I like for the cc85hv but the pitch 'might' have had something to do with it. I hope to try it again this evening. I havn't really done much more than hover it with a few gentle flips and the punchouts. I'll be opening it up as I get a few more flights on it.

I"ve been comparing eagletree graphs, I've been playing with various versions of Castle's ESC firmware to see which one works better. Version 1.55's governor would undershoot about 70 rpms and overshoot 300 rpms, I was seeing 2500 rpm's for a couple of seconds after unloading the head before it came back to around 2200. version 1.56 is doing better, so far.

Lots more testing to do but I think you'll like the 1515 if the thing stays together. I know I like the power. My 1910 peaks out around 2400 watts and this one showed just over 3000 during the climbouts and it still had more.

I'll post some data when I get more time on it but my initial impression is good, very good.

[kgfly]

Originally Posted by JesusFreak

Get the Rotorworkz HFEX Frames and be done with it. Then you can pick the motor you like. If your going to all this trouble, what's another 100 and change for a really nice Frame?

Certainly an option, but there is the potential issue of replacement frame parts too.

I'm working on the same setup. I want to use the A123 packs. What's the total Mah on the A123 10S pack?

The only A132 cells currently available are the M1 cells which are 2300mAh and 70g each. They have some new higher capacity cells announced but no specifications are available yet and nor is there likely to be a convenient way to buy them.

What's the trade off between the 1515 Neu and the 19nn series?

Good question! I think mostly it is about size/shape/weight for a given power and KV. The 19nn series is short and fat compared to the 15nn series tall and thin configuration. The 15nn series is rated to 60,000rpm whereas the 19nn to 30,000prm and the 15nn series seems to be more expensive for a given application. Not a good answer, I hope someone else can give a clearer explanation of the key differences.

<EDIT> I see John posted something much more useful while I was typing So the 15nn series is insanely powerful compared to the merely wildy powerful 19nn series. 3kW

Take a look at NEU's recommendations for T600 8s/10s lipo setups here:
http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/He...lications.html

or their new Heli motors here:
http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/Heli%20Motors.html

Where's the best place to get the batteries?

AFAIK from eBay. Search for DeWalt 36V battery packs for power tools. Each pack contains 10 A123 2300mAh cells. They typically sell for $90-$120 plus $15-$30 shipping.

Further up in this thread you will find a link to instructions on how to disassemble the packs and make a 10s flight battery.

[csell]

Hello.

It is very easy to publish figures, just to get attension. I don´t know if this is the case here, a little down on this page the the rumor says that the new cells are:

http://f5jfun.com/e107/news.php

AHR32113M1Ultra , teda priemer 32mm a dĺžku 113mm, kapacita 7000mAh ???
AHR32157M1HD, priemer 32mm a dĺžku 157mm, kapacita 10000mAh ???

But please better se here: http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/i...power/pchart5/

The Blue M1 is what is avaiable for the moment, I realy like to se how fast the new orange Ultra will charge.

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Good detective work Carsten

Since the original M1 cell has the part number 26650 and is 26mm x 65mm we have been speculating that the new cells would indeed be 32x113 and 32x157.

Taking a simplistic approach based on volume ratios that would make them around
5600mAh (170g) and 7800mAh (240g) but of course that takes no account of other differences in their internal fomulation and construction.

Due to the low per-cell voltage, it is hard to see how we could apply cells like these to our hobby. Achieving the target power levels while still staying under say 1kg battery load would mean running between 4s and 6s which is only 12V-18V at best. For someone aiming at 2000W or more that means 100-200A which is getting pretty serious Since all resistive losses go up as the square of the current, heating would be up to 6 times what you would see with say a 10s A123 setup

Still it will be interesting to see when the real specifications come out how close the guessing has been

[csell]

Hello.

I got a new idea I will like to hear your opinion about.

Will a T-rex 600 CF with a 3-4 mm wider frame have advantages?

In the beginning I will like to hear what you think about the idea,
later we can try to find practical solutions.

This tread show that several of the brushless motors we talk about is to thick.
NEU's economical 19nn have a diameter of 50 mm and Zpower Z50 without B 49 mm.

Many thanks to JesusFreak who sugested a new frame, but why bay a new frame
when what I need is a kit to increase the witdh of the standard CF frame?

Which disadvantages do you se having a little wider frame?
I am asking because I like to hear your opinion.

What will be the ideal width be if we do it for the posibility to mount better motors?

2mm, 3mm or 4mm?

What will be the disadvantages?


What do you expect such a upgrade kit to cost?

Is it a economical salesable solution?

Do you think enough people will bay such a kit, so somebody can make a small buisness producing and selling it?

If your answers is as mine, I will ask you, who do you think want to produce it?

May be motors- or frame manufactors, and who else?

This was the general idea. Is there any that know a place where I can get one
upgrade kit produced for my T-rex 600 CF?


A shop selling OBL 49/08-50H / Zpower Z50 without a B took this picture:

Diameter TTR2380 Ripper Outrunner Heli OBL 49/08-50H

Please find it in my Gallery by cliking on the "Gallery" link in the bottem of this input, it is the only one in the Gallery.

What must I change on my frame if I want to use it?

Regards Carsten

[Mercuriell]

If you want wider frames to accommodate bigger motor or packs you could always buy the 600 Nitro (which comes without engine) and is 53mm internal width as opposed to 47mm for the E version ! You could use an E engine mount with a 6mm spacer or make one up of of some alloy - you could put a nice big battery pack in the real estate currently occupied by the fuel tank

[JesusFreak]

Carsten:

When you start messing with the width, things get more complicated, because you ahve to deal with your servo geometry to the swash, and you may also run into canopy issues. Changing the height and overall layout like Rotorworkz has done gives you the ability to use most of the stock parts, without really messing with the head/servo setup. In fact, Charlies setup is simpler, because the servoes connect directly to the swash. But if you make the frame wider, you will have to engineer your own Servo mounts, etc. to keep things in line. I really don't seem much advantage. Rotorworkz stuff is available now and solves the problem elegantly. Parts do not seem to be a problem, and once you have the parts, you can make a template to cut your own in a pinch, so I don't see much risk.

Cheers!
Lee

[ozace]

I would think widening the E frames would be simple now with the use of the N version bearing blocks and spacers. Just need someone with patience to run thru both versions and see which parts are needed.
To start, the boom bracket and bearing blocks and the frame spacers, maybe the control rod as well.

[Mercuriell]

Originally Posted by ozace

I would think widening the E frames would be simple now with the use of the N version bearing blocks and spacers. Just need someone with patience to run thru both versions and see which parts are needed.
To start, the boom bracket and bearing blocks and the frame spacers, maybe the control rod as well.

The boom tail case would be the limiting factor as they're not available yet - the base plate also has a completely different attachment system using alloy blocks and the front battery plate wouldn't fit - much simpler to buy the whole thing AU$545 and then buy motor and ESC you want instead of paying for the ALign stuff :mrgreen:

[kgfly]

Of course buying an alternate frame or commissioning some custom parts will cost a lot more than the difference between a motor that fits and one that doesn't !

Rotorworkz frame ~$100

1912H/1Y (too wide) $249
1515/2YF (fits) $270
1515H/2Y (fits) $299
Z50B-10S (fits) $130

So the extra cost for a NEU motor that fits is only $21-$50, a lot less than any change to the frame. Of course experimenting with the Z50B is the cheapest path by far, about the price of a whole 10s A123 pack less than a NEU motor :wink:

[JesusFreak]

Yes, but if you start with the Aluminum model, you have a $100 or so to play with towards the custom CF Frames. And Charlie's frames are nice, and you get the cool zero adjustment servo arms. ;-)

[kgfly]

I think Carsten already has his T600 so that path isn't open to him, although it is certainly an option for someone pondering getting started.