Jive 120 Pro w/R2 prototyping startup problem

[johncclayton]

Hi

I've got a jive pro 120 HV and its hooked up in parallel with a r2 prototyping 50f buffer unit. I have rx and main pack voltage as telemetry in the tx.

I want to know if others are experiencing the same behavior when packs are connected.

When the r2 prototyping buffer unit is completely discharged, for example when I leave it overnight, and I plug in a fully charged 12s pack into the system then I see the following happen:

1. The rx does not power up.
2. The r2 unit is charging (green and red led lit up)
3. Telemetry shows 0v, no surprise there as the rx isn't being powered so it can't deliver telemetry data to the tx.
4. After about 1 min there is just about enough power to run the rx - it starts up but its led is red/green alternating.
5. Telemetry shows 3.3v rx pack voltage.
6. After approx 3 minutes the r2 unit is fully charged and everything is showing normal status lights.
7. Telemetry shows a 7.7v rx voltage.

This is weird. If I detach the r2 unit then I never see this slow start behavior, so I believe it's an interaction between how the jive is starting up and how it reacts to the power draw of the r2 unit when it initially charges.

The r2 unit has a little dial that changes the speed of charging - changing this to charge more slowly seems to have no effect on this startup behavior.

If the r2 unit has a residual capacity of more than 3.1v and I plug a batt. into the system then startup is normal, namely:

1. The rx and fbl init immediately.
2. The telemetry shows the jive outputting 7.7v

Has anyone else experienced this "slow startup" behavior with the r2 unit and a jive or other ESC?

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by johncclayton

Hi

I've got a jive pro 120 HV and its hooked up in parallel with a r2 prototyping 50f buffer unit. I have rx and main pack voltage as telemetry in the tx.

I want to know if others are experiencing the same behavior when packs are connected.

When the r2 prototyping buffer unit is completely discharged, for example when I leave it overnight, and I plug in a fully charged 12s pack into the system then I see the following happen:

1. The rx does not power up.
2. The r2 unit is charging (green and red led lit up)
3. Telemetry shows 0v, no surprise there as the rx isn't being powered so it can't deliver telemetry data to the tx.
4. After about 1 min there is just about enough power to run the rx - it starts up but its led is red/green alternating.
5. Telemetry shows 3.3v rx pack voltage.
6. After approx 3 minutes the r2 unit is fully charged and everything is showing normal status lights.
7. Telemetry shows a 7.7v rx voltage.

This is weird. If I detach the r2 unit then I never see this slow start behavior, so I believe it's an interaction between how the jive is starting up and how it reacts to the power draw of the r2 unit when it initially charges.

The r2 unit has a little dial that changes the speed of charging - changing this to charge more slowly seems to have no effect on this startup behavior.

If the r2 unit has a residual capacity of more than 3.1v and I plug a batt. into the system then startup is normal, namely:

1. The rx and fbl init immediately.
2. The telemetry shows the jive outputting 7.7v

Has anyone else experienced this "slow startup" behavior with the r2 unit and a jive or other ESC?

This is a flaw of using capacitors they amplify the current spike during boot up which Kontronik becs don't like. I would either plug it in after the system has booted or go the correct route and use a tiny 2s lipo on a switch.

[Ty89m]

It seems to be hit or miss with the Jive Pro/Kosmik. My Jive Pro 120 and R2 (also the 50f) all get along great. This is with BK servos, jlog, and Spirit FBL all connected during power up.

I know it's not the most convenient thing, but you could do as Wh1teAfr1can said and plug the R2 in AFTER power up.

The R2 BEC guard is another option, or just use the 2S lipo (though I find the R2 buffer to be a better backup/buffer than a simple lipo/nimh pack)

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by Ty89m

It seems to be hit or miss with the Jive Pro/Kosmik. My Jive Pro 120 and R2 (also the 50f) all get along great. This is with BK servos, jlog, and Spirit FBL all connected during power up.

I know it's not the most convenient thing, but you could do as Wh1teAfr1can said and plug the R2 in AFTER power up.

The R2 BEC guard is another option, or just use the 2S lipo (though I find the R2 buffer to be a better backup/buffer than a simple lipo/nimh pack)

why is it better? It has less capacity, can cause issues on start up because it is drawing extra current to charge itself.

my 2s 450 mah lipo and switch weigh less.

can provide me with more time to land

and is less than half the price.

[johncclayton]

Firstly, thank you for the reply - I'm not alone.

"Better" is a decidedly personal choice. I removed the optiguards because the 2s packs were both slightly puffed (on 2 helis). Additionally I have had a break of about 1 month flying and when I returned to one of the helis the buffer pack was somehow discharged. I didn't notice, so I had a flight and when I unplugged the main pack everything switched off instantly. So I was basically flying without a backup.

Now whether it's because the guard discharged, or was in hibernate mode I really don't care - because at the end of the day it's more stuff for me to worry about and to check.

Pros and cons : with buffer caps I know they take a bit longer to charge, but (and this is critical) "to me" they appear a simpler and more foolproof scenario.

Thanks again for your inputs - I really appreciate sharing the experiences.

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by johncclayton

Firstly, thank you for the reply - I'm not alone.

"Better" is a decidedly personal choice. I removed the optiguards because the 2s packs were both slightly puffed (on 2 helis). Additionally I have had a break of about 1 month flying and when I returned to one of the helis the buffer pack was somehow discharged. I didn't notice, so I had a flight and when I unplugged the main pack everything switched off instantly. So I was basically flying without a backup.

Now whether it's because the guard discharged, or was in hibernate mode I really don't care - because at the end of the day it's more stuff for me to worry about and to check.

Pros and cons : with buffer caps I know they take a bit longer to charge, but (and this is critical) "to me" they appear a simpler and more foolproof scenario.

Thanks again for your inputs - I really appreciate sharing the experiences.

Optiguard is not the same as a 2s lipo hooked in. Optiguard is worse than a capacitor buffer because it provides no buffering it only jumps in when the bec voltage goes away.

[johncclayton]

So even though the r2 caps have a sluggish startup, it's for this reason as well that I put them back in - to smooth out voltage requirement spikes during flights.

[Dr.Ben]

It is an ongoing source of relative amazement for me that regardless of how simple the little buffer pack is to purchase, install, and use, folks still try to complicate matters with more costly and complex devices. It almost mimics the posts we get where guys have programmed a Kosmik for heli use and think they must have overlooked something. Not everything needs be complicated.

Ben Minor

PS: I'm not bashing the R2 because while the caps have their operating liabilites noted by Richard, at least the device can buffer as required. The Optiguard simply does not do that.

[jhamel]

Originally Posted by johncclayton

I've got a jive pro 120 HV and its hooked up in parallel with a r2 prototyping 50f buffer unit. I have rx and main pack voltage as telemetry in the tx.

I want to know if others are experiencing the same behavior when packs are connected.

When the r2 prototyping buffer unit is completely discharged, for example when I leave it overnight, and I plug in a fully charged 12s pack into the system then I see the following happen:

1. The rx does not power up.
2. The r2 unit is charging (green and red led lit up)
3. Telemetry shows 0v, no surprise there as the rx isn't being powered so it can't deliver telemetry data to the tx.
4. After about 1 min there is just about enough power to run the rx - it starts up but its led is red/green alternating.
5. Telemetry shows 3.3v rx pack voltage.
6. After approx 3 minutes the r2 unit is fully charged and everything is showing normal status lights.
7. Telemetry shows a 7.7v rx voltage.

I am experiencing the same issue.

I want to learn more about how the Jive Pro 120+HV ESC would tolerate it if I "jump start" the system by plugging in a 2S LiPo (to either the FBL unit or the receiver) for a few minutes before the first flight of the day in order to charge the R2 Super Capacitor? I have the Jive Pro BEC set to 7.8V. I don't think the Jive Pro ESC has a diode to prevent back current from the 2S LiPo. So, is it safe for the Jive Pro if I plug a fully charged 2S LiPo (to either the FBL unit or the receiver) before the first flight in order to "jump start" the system and charge the R2 Super Capacitor before I connect the main flight packs?

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by curmudgeon

I am experiencing the same issue.

I want to learn more about how the Jive Pro 120+HV ESC would tolerate it if I "jump start" the system by plugging in a 2S LiPo (to either the FBL unit or the receiver) for a few minutes before the first flight of the day in order to charge the R2 Super Capacitor? I have the Jive Pro BEC set to 7.8V. I don't think the Jive Pro ESC has a diode to prevent back current from the 2S LiPo. So, is it safe for the Jive Pro if I plug a fully charged 2S LiPo (to either the FBL unit or the receiver) before the first flight in order to "jump start" the system and charge the R2 Super Capacitor before I connect the main flight packs?

All kontronik escs are protected against back feeding from batteries connected to the bec.

[jhamel]

Then, the solution for me will be pretty simple. I'll just "jump start" the electronics with a 2S LiPo before the first flight of the day to let the R2 Super Capacitor charge for a few minutes. Thank you.

[Puttputt maru]

Reading all this makes me seriously wonder if it is worth all the trouble to have the R2 or any other similar devices.

Just saying not meant as a critic. From what I have read and from what a lot of other people on this board with many more years of experience than me with Kontronik have said, the Kontronik equipment is so reliable why bother?

I have had a reflexion on this since trying an ultra-guard and from my perspective if the ESC is gone than so is my helicopter, especially with my autorotation skills which are laughable.

[jhamel]

Although I agree that the Kontronik internal BEC is pretty robust, I would feel uncomfortable not using some sort of backup method for the electronics especially since that is the recommendation from Kontronik.

However, I am starting to rethink using the R2 Prototyping Buffer units. All of my servos are HV, so they run happy on a 2S LiPo. I am running Kontronik Kosmik and Jive Pro ESCs exclusively now, so I can just set the BEC voltage to 8v. Now with the revelation from Wh1teAfr1can that the Kontronik ESCs are protected from the 2S LiPo backfeed, maybe I should just use a small 2S LiPo as backup/buffer? The 2S LiPo would also offer the advantage of powering up the electronics before powering up the ESC with the main packs.

What would happen if I use a semi-discharged 2S LiPo as backup? Lets say the 2S LiPo is down to 7.5v and the Kontronik BEC is set to 8V? Would the Kontronik BEC be overwhelmed trying to recharge the 2S LiPo?

[Puttputt maru]

What would happen if I use a semi-discharged 2S LiPo as backup? Lets say the 2S LiPo is down to 7.5v and the Kontronik BEC is set to 8V? Would the Kontronik BEC be overwhelmed trying to recharge the 2S LiPo?

Interesting question that I would like to have answered too.

I do see your point about being uncomfortable without the backup and understand it perfectly.
The recommandation as I understand is to fill in for "dips" in voltage and is an advice but not a need unless I am mistaken.

As for me I am looking for weight saving coming from a much lighter ESC than Kosmik and hating my TDR with Kosmik and the Ultraguard, so I moved to JivePro without any batteries backup.

[Vinger]

Even from the days of the Jive, Kontronik recommended a buffer pack and their BEC was designed to work in conjuction with it.

JPro and Kosmik having 10A and better BEC's will quickly charge the pack and not even feel the load at startup. Those little 2S packs have such high internal resistance that they basically will limit the charge current. Never seen any problems in logs or real usage even with the 2S pack down to 3.8V per cell.

[Drakoz]

Consider, if you use a 2S LiPO, it should still be balance charged, and it should be done so at a 1-2C charge rate at the most. If you use the BEC to charge your battery, it could charge at much higher than 2C. Not only could this ruin your battery, but it could catch fire. Also, if you always let your BEC charge the backup battery, it could create an imbalanced charge eventually and cause a cell to fail (or catch fire due to improper charging or over voltage on one cell). As this is a battery that you normally don't use, you won't know the cell has failed unless you test it, or find out the hard way.

A BEC is not a battery charger. Battery chargers vary the voltage and monitor the current to make sure the battery isn't ruined or worse. A 1000mAH backup battery, for example, should be charged at no more than 2A (2C). The 8A continuous output of a Jive Pro 120+ would charge that battery at 8C!! I would not depend on the internal resistance of the battery pack to mitigate that as it is an inconsistent variable (plus or minus the brand and age of the battery), and for a new battery, the internal resistance is too low to prevent excessive current.

On my Helicopter, my BEC is set to 8V, and I use a 2S LIPO balanced charged to 4V/cell (my charger makes this easy because I can setup charger profiles - and I set one to stop at 4V/cell). I always check the backup battery before I start flying for the day to make sure it is still roughly 4V/cell. Most the time when I check it, it's close enough, and I go flying. Close enough is 3.9 V/cell. Much lower and I swap it out with a newly charged battery. After several weeks of not flying, though, I find I have to remove the battery and re-balance charge it. Or usually, I keep a second backup battery which I just balance charge with my main batteries and swap at the field. That way I also have a chance to check the battery health on my smart charger vs. taking a risk charging with the BEC. It is still a LiPO with all the risks of using one. In fact you should be more paranoid about smaller sized LiPOs vs. the larger ones. In my experience, the smaller packs seem to be more easily prone to failure, rapidly rising internal resistance, or short life when abused. And charging it with your BEC is definitely abuse.

I imagine you can also get away with just charging a backup LiPO to 4.2V/cell as the BEC reverse protection will be OK. In that case, the 8.4V backup battery will drive your receiver and servos until it discharges down to the BEC voltage where the BEC will now drive everything. Also, check that 8.4V doesn't exceed your receiver or servo specs. I prefer not to do this because I want to know my BEC is driving everything on the ground during my pre-flight checks. Imagine the case where the BEC has failed (rare of course), and the backup is driving everything in flight. You won't know until the battery starts to die.

As for hooking up the backup battery, because my Jive Pro 120+ has the issue this thread was started over (it won't power up without a backup battery), I always hook up the backup battery first, then the main battery. I have to because since my Kontronic is defective with this "won't power up issue" it is the only way I can use my ESC. It is the last Kontronic I will every buy. Ya, it works, and has for over 250 flights, but for something as expensive as a Kontronic, I expect better. There are cheaper ESC out there without issues like this and with much better support, data acquisition built in, and much easier configuration through a USB interface and GUI. Why people continue to buy Kontronic I don't know.

[im4711]

I kind of use almost all available options. I have a few machines running directly from the JivePro or Kosmik. As many flights as they have without no issues its almost questionable why even setting up another option. However I had an issue of main battery failure so I started using backup battery, OptiGuard and since a bit now also the R2 buffer unit.

R2 buffer unit takes a moment to get to full charge. Its possibly only an issue on first start and during flight day seem to be no issue. So I may get my half a minute power in case the main battery has an issue (my issue on a large heli was a broken cable right at the connector).

My OptiGuard I tested a few times. Yes its not buffering voltage constantly but it kicks in if there is an issue with power supply and voltage drops by 0.5V. Thats actually all I need since looking at the logs I hardly see current spikes on BEC over 20 Amp and the internal BEC's of Kosmik and Jive Pro can handle those.

The extra battery buffer .... well I really have to remember to completely unplug after every flight. Its a bit of a pain.

My preferred solution is nothing at all. However the OptiGuard and R2 Buffer unit do what they are made to do and actually seem to work OK. Yes OptiGuard need to be watched a bit since you do not want to drain the battery. But thats normal with any battery so no complain on my site.

For the issue with starting the systems -> I have one of the first generations Kosmik still on the old firmware. That has no issues with it (still will update firmware soon since I want the new features available). I had some Kosmik with firmware from 2015 on it (a few releases back). Two of those had that issue during initialization. I did bring all units to latest firmware version and they all seem to work fine now. So there must have been a version in between that actually changed the management of the initialization phase.

[Vinger]

Drakoz just send it in to be replaced or fixed. Kontronik USA can handle that for you. Then as im4711 has posted run without a buffer, in fact I fly my TDR, Banshee and R5 without any buffer pack and only have the Optipower on my TDR2 as a backup, never actually had any problem with over 9 years of Kontronik BEC only use.

[im4711]

+1
!!!! important - no need to ship to Kontronik Germany directly - as vinger mentioned - ship to Kontronik USA and possibly ask if they still have the Kosmik Loaner program which may get you a temp loaner Kosmik until yours is back.

[Drakoz]

Thanks for the comments. I'm OK running with a backup battery as that is highly suggested anyway. But I'm glad to hear they are doing loaners now.

My Jive Pro 120 had the problem the first time I powered it up, which was about 30 days after I bought it (took me a month to assemble my helicopter). The seller (HeliDirect) could not help me due to Kontronik's return policies (you have to return to Kontronik, can't return to vendor). Because I had planned to spend the summer flying as much as I could (I mean, it was my first large helicopter - do I really need to explain how disappointing this was), and because the stories I was hearing about sending in a bad unit for repair/replacement was several months as it took the slow boat to Germany and back, I elected to not send it in. Nobody mentioned anything about a backup unit while mine was being repaired. In fact, I probably even asked for such a thing given that my brand new helicopter would not be able to fly for months.

Ultimately, my backup battery allowed me to fly, so I moved on. Some other friends of mine who encountered the problem got rid of all their Kontronik stuff because they didn't trust Kontronik anymore. I'm an EE and I've designed several power supplies. I knew what ever the problem was, it was purely an initialization issue so I wasn't worried about it causing an inflight failure. But also, because I know about power supply design, I found the issue quite ridiculous - bad quality control in a very bad way - as I know the reasons why such an issue might occur to a power supply, and that testing to prevent such an issue is critical to a good power supply design. For a product that was 3x the price of it's closest competitor, I expected way more. That is why Kontronik lost me as a customer.

This kind of mistake should have immediately been handled by cross shipping a replacement or at least shipping a replacement from the USA rep, but that's not how Kontronik wanted to handle it. The USA rep was as helpful as he could be so I thank him for that, but Kontronik's return policy over a brand new defective product was BS (and especially BS for a $600 item!!) and is one of the biggest reasons why they lost me forever as a customer. If I had run into the same issue with a Castle Creations product, I would have been able to return it to HeliDirect for an immediate replacement. HeliDirect's hands were tied, though.

If Kontronik has loaner products now to deal with a warranty return, I'm happy to hear it. Tells me that I'm not the only one that complained loudly enough to them over this issue and they made an improvement. Again, I assume the USA rep. (I forget his name) realized the issues of shipping warranty returns back to Germany and taking months for the return product just wasn't working and probably lobbied for loaners. Good news for sure, but too late and too little for me.