Want ESC for minimum 8s a123 / 7s Lipo.

[csell]

Hello.

Thanks for all your answers.

What size pinion do you recomend for 10s a123?
Is Align PINION GEAR OK, what else to bay?
I like to order it together with the CC HV85.

You use Celsius in Australia, but is the 140 degrees limit in Fahrenheit or Celsius?

You write that I will need 500W powersupply, I agree, last week I ordered 2 pcs 350W 13.8V 25.3A Switching Power Supply due to I like the flexibility in having 2 units. Do you think I shall try to change it to 2 pcs 400W instead?

CC HV85 is 150US$ + shipping.
And I try to "agosiate quantity discount and save on combined shipping" with some powersellers.

I have never tryed it before, but I am comfortable with the idea of making up my own packs. I have been working with electronics for many years. And I think 10s is easyer to make than any other configurations.


Kgfly writes: If it was me I would go.........

That was also my thinking one week ago. I like to get it confirmed and asked for help in this forum. You have all been very helpfull and you make me sure, today it is the rigth way to go, but why have all the people who fly sports flying didn't se it before?

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Carsten,

Celsius
We use Celsius in Australia so the safe temperature for battery longevity is 140F = 60C.

2 x 350W is plenty
Two 350W power supplies is plenty if you are only going to run a single high-power charger off each one. 350W input will drive up to a 280W output charger and the most powerful one I know of is only 220W so you have plenty of headroom in those supplies.

CC HV85, good deal?
Where do you get the CC HV85 at that price ?

Making 10s A123 packs
The 10s is easy because you can use the cells straight out of the DeWalt pack. Simply add balance taps to suit your balancer, main power leads, some hot glue fillets between the cells for strength and shrinkwrap. There are some good instructions here: http://www.tppacks.com/documents/10-...structions.pdf

Choosing a pinion
Search here on helifreak, there is a lot of information about T600 setups with various motor/battery/pinion combinations. The basic formula is:

HSrpm = efficiency x num_cells x volts_per_cell x motor_KV x pinion_t / main_t

For a T600 I believe main_t is 170, assume 90% efficiency, 600L motor is 1620KV so you get:

pinion = target_HS x 170 / (0.90 x 10 x 1620 x volts_per_cell) 
       = 0.01166 x target_HS / volts_cell


target_HS  volts_cell  pinion
---------  ----------  ------
  1800        3.0         7
  1800        2.5         9
---------  ----------  ------
  2000        3.0         8
  2000        2.5        10
---------  ----------  ------
  2200        3.0         9
  2200        2.5        11
---------  ----------  ------

AFAIK 10t is as small as you can get from Align but perhaps there are others that fit, or more likely you have to choose a lower KV motor. The wide range of voltage under load means that a good governor is important. I believe the CCHV85 has one. Still with a 10t pinon you might be struggling to run a mild headspeed, if that is what you want. Hence again the need to consider a motor better matched to a 10s setup.

For example, an Align 600XL(1650kv, >1600W, 6s, 300g) is about $120, a Z50 (780kv, >1800W, 6s-10s, 340g) is about $100 and might give you a better choice of pinions ? Otherwise something around the 1100kv should be about right. I am just making educated guesses as I don't have any hands-on experience with these high-power systems to know what really works. :?

[csell]

Hello.

I plan to use 2 chargers on one 350W power suply and 1 on the other. They are specified Over power protection: 105% ~ 150% of output power and over voltage protection: 115% ~ 135% of output voltage.

Kgfly ask Where I can get the CC HV85 at that price ? I am sorry, I took it from memory, the correct price is Castle Creations Phoenix-85 High Voltage ESC 155 US$ and the Castle Creations Castle Link Programming Kit 21 US$ Total 176 US$ + Shipping

Is is easy to write prices on webpages, if they confirm they have it in stock, I will post the shop here.

Kgfly also suggest that I add balance taps, I use a Fligth Power v-ballance on my lipo, I belive in ballancing, I was not sure a123 needed balancing, but what balancers to bay for a123?

When I asked for pinion size, was it just because it was the last item I neeeded to order.

But I seached here on helifreak and http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...q-phoenix.html

I now understand it is more complicated than I expected. What I want it a optimal setup, not for max power, but a optimal setup for the 10s a123 pack driving the align 600L motor via the Phoenix HV85 ESC.

If we take one thing at a time, I want to use the 600L motor at least for a year or two.

We have together deceided that 10s a123 is the thing to try.

As I understand it, the thing we can adjust, is the setting in the HV85 and the Pinion. ( That is also the reasen that I order the Link Programming Kit ).

Waelo uses CC HV85 together with 600L and 10S A123. Works good so far but only running the engine at 75% throttle so it will survive.

Is it nessesary or may be just optimal to make some setting for lower power?

Then we come to the pinion, I think we want one suitable for sports flying and optimal flying time, but we don't want one, so we overload/heat up motor or ESC?

I thanks for all your help and I hope to continue this tread for some time, but consider, if I shall ask this quiesten and just this quiesten in another tread, to get the pinion experts attension?

Regards Carsten

[csell]

Hello.

I have found MrMel's Headspeed calculator here:

http://www.dacsa.net/heli/Calculator/default.aspx

When I enter a123 10S it calculates

for 8 teeth pinion:

RPM at low load (2-4C): 2329 at 31,5 volt
RPM at medium load (13-15C): 2034 at 27,5 volt
RPM at full load (>23C): 1701 at 23 volt


and for 10 teeth pinion:

RPM at low load (2-4C): 2912 at 31,5 volt
RPM at medium load (13-15C): 2542 at 27,5 volt
RPM at full load (>23C): 2126 at 23 volt

Can somebody help me to understand the numbers?


Waelo uses CC HV85 together with 600L and 10S A123. Works good so
far but only running the engine at 75% throttle so it will survive.

With is in mind, what will be the rigth pinion to use?
And how must the CC HV85 and 9CHP/FF9 then be programmed?

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Carsten,

You can use any lipo balancer for A123 cells. If it is a charge-through balancer then make sure it is rated for the charge current you plan to use.

For a given main gear/pinion combination, the headspeed is a function of the motor KV rating and the applied voltage. MrMel's excellent calculator shows you the range of speeds that will result from the varying voltage output by the pack under different loads (light, moderate and heavy). You need to determine what is your desired headspeed. I believe that 1800-2200 is the normal range for a T600 with the lower headspeed requiring less power and hence giving longer flight time at the cost of less agility. The figures from MrMel show that a 10t pinion is too big for your proposed setup, 8t more realistic but 8t is not available.

That was a good link to the CC FAQ page. You should read this item on that page carefully and make sure you understand it: http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...enix.html#gen2

It explains why running a motor/esc consistantly well below full throttle is a bad idea. Waelo's success in running the 600L on 10s A123 at 75% throttle (and presumable a 10t pinion) is interesting but you should understand that it is probably stressing the batteries, motor and ESC such that long term reliability and lifetime will be affected. It would be interesting to hear from Waelo about his motor, ESC and battery temperatures after flying.

I am a bit confused. You seem to be spending a lot of money on this project to get the right batteries, ESC, multiple chargers, multiple power supplies and yet reluctant to spend an extra $100-300 to get the right motor to go with itt ?

The bottom line is that the 600L is a 6s motor and a poor match for a 10s A123 setup. Can it be made to work ? Clearly it can but it may not be a good setup overall. The governor on the CC may not operate at such a low throttle range (below 75%) which would mean that your headspeed will vary throughout the flight, possibly by quite a lot as the pack drains. You might want to look into that too.

The secret to success is a well matched power train. That means a battery/motor/esc/pinion combination that lets you run the desired headspeed at 85-100% throttle with the motor spinning at close to it's designed RPM and the batteries being loaded at a level that keeps them below 60C at all times.

[csell]

Hello.

Until I start asking this questen I was considering to bay 2 more lipo.

If I got to more lipos I liked one more charger and a power supply.
I expect to use the power suplyes for at least the next 15 years and they are not expensive.

The chargers had a exelent reputation and until now schulze had provided new firmware for new type of batteries, so I also expect they last many years:

http://www.schulze-elektronik-gmbh.com/isl6-e.htm

I was wondering if the lipo was the rigth way to go, I was afread that I would be locked into 6s lipos if using more money on 6s lipo.

As I se it, the future for me is to bay a123 and I can grow with it.
If I bay 4 psc 10s a123 packs, I can use it as eahter as 5 pcs 8s pack or 4 pcs 10s pack and may be in 1-2 years time 3 pcs 13s pack. My chargers max is also 13s for a123, so I had all options. The only problem will be how to ballance a 13s pack?


Kgfly writes yesterday that the specifications for the 600L don't indicate a max voltage or max rpm. So I didn't realyze the truth until now, when he writes: The bottom line is that the 600L is a 6s motor. Thank kgfly for making is so clear for me, It was not until now.

I also think it would be very interesting to hear from Waelo about his motor, ESC and battery temperatures after flying.

But what can I change in the setup:

alignUSA Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 in https://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=16184 that he already ask Align Factory to make 9T stock pinion, is it available?

If I can´t get a smaller pinion is it then possiable to get a bigger main gear?

Is 9s a123 a option:

RPM at low load (2-4C): 2621 at 28,35 volt
RPM at medium load (13-15C): 2288 at 24,75 volt
RPM at full load (>23C): 1913 at 20,7 volt

Or shall I all the way down to 8s:

RPM at low load (2-4C): 2329 at 25,2 volt
RPM at medium load (13-15C): 2034 at 22 volt
RPM at full load (>23C): 1701 at 18,4 volt

Or is a combination with change of gear and 9s possiable?

If I deceide to go for 8s a123 then I can make 5 packs, resulting in shoter flying times but can still get nearly continues flying.

So what to do, I think I can find the money for a new motor, the idea is just new to me. I belives a 10s or 13s setup is overkill for a beginner. I am not ready to take this decition yet, but what motors can you recomend?

Carsten

[kgfly]

Carsten,

You cannot get a larger main gear.

8s A123, 600L(1620kv) motor, 10t pinion may be a viable setup. The only downside is shorter flights (3 to 5 minutes is my guess). Mercurial reported that he ran that setup in an earlier post.

Here are some setups for T600 on 10s A123 that I found with a quick google search:

Neu 1512 2y (1400kv), ? 10t ?, ~6-7min
Neu 1515 (1100kv), 13t helical
Z-power Z50a/800, 18t, ~2100rpm, 4:30min
Zpower Z30a-1100kv (2000W)
Zpower Z30a-800kv (2000W)

The Neu motors are highly regarded for their performance and efficiency but are expensive. See here for more info: http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/Heli%20Motors.html

The ZPower motors have become a popular alternative at a lower price point. There seem to be two series, the "red" ones and the "blue" ones, I am not sure if there is a difference. I did find this comment from a ZPower vendor "The Z30A is really sized for 500-580 bladed models like a Swift or a Logo 10. The Z50As are what you need for the bigger stuff, with 600-620 blades". Still, a Z30 might do well for learning and basic sport flying but you would probably need an upgrade for more aggressive stuff. At about ~$100 it's not a bad bet.

Some of these alternative motors require modifications to the frame to fit so check the dimensions of each motor carefully. I read that the Z30 is a drop-in replacement, not sure about the others. The Z30 (1100kv) and a 13t pinion looks about right.

Whatever you choose you should probably get 3 pinions, 1 up and 1 down from what you think is about right as the calculations are only an estimate and it usually takes some experimentation to find the right match.

[ozace]

What a read, lots o good stuff here, thanks.

10cell A123 packs are by far the most user friendly to use. Strip out the cells from the dewalt pack and solder on fly leads and balance taps. If you decide to make other configurations you have to be very careful disassembling the cells as the ends are fragile and dont cope with any abuse during construction (phisical or heat related).

Due to the high voltage drop of the a123 cells using Mr mels calcs above we can see the difference in HS during a discharge. I aim to run my Throttle at a level the battery packs can maintain the HS, if that means higher gearing and lower % thats what i do and it has worked well for nearly 1 year now.

[kgfly]

So save me ozace, your experience is a gold mine for us

Is all my fluffy theory all way off ?
What motor/pinion setup works for 10s A123 on a T600 for sport flying ?
What flight times are you getting ?
Can you run the ESC consistantly down around 70-75% without overheating ?
Is it feasible to run a 600L on 10s A123 at low throttle and have all the parts survive ?
Which motors will fit and which won't ?
Would a Z30 be OK for sport flying a T600 or cook and melt ?

[ozace]

10s a123 cells i have found motors in the 1100-1400 kv range are whats needed.
this allows the use of the Align 10 and 11 pinions (straight cut).

Going to 800kv motors works but Mikado pininos are required (14t)

The 600l and xl are 1650-1800kv and not great options for 10s a123 packs. The issue can be that the rpm is too high for the motor or the motor rpm is too high for the esc to control. Now i am not saying it wont work but its not something i am game to try.

I get 5-6 mins of flight at 2100headspeed , but it gently flying. There is more flight time to be gained by dropping the headspeed down if desired.

[csell]

Hello.

I didn't se Ozace last input before I wrote this.

If we succed in finding a workable 600L a123 10s setup, I think fligth times is related to how much ernergy we carry. Usable energy: 46J for 8s and 58J for 10s.

Mercuriell has about 5 mins flying on 8S and waelo around 7-8 minutes. If Mercuriell has 5 min=300 min then I think waelo for the same kind of flying schuld only have 300/46*58 = 378 min = 6 min. and 18 sec. We guess on, that waelos components heats up. If it does, the energy for the heat can only come from the battery meaning even less eficiency? The 8s setup even have a small weigt advangeges on 140g. But the importent thing is not if they have 5 min or 6 min, but det difference, Is I ready to accept about 1 min. and 20. sec less flying times in 8s?

Thanks ozace for your kind words. I agree the 10s is the easyest way to go. If I choose 8s or 9s I am not sure I will remove the unused cells.

Is it possiable to go for 8s and may be use the two remaining a123 cells to power the reveiver. I don't know if 2 a123 cells can power the receiver, but then I can remove the receiver battery and save its weigth.

If i bay 4 10s packs and want to aim for 3 pcs a123 13s then it is easy with the 3 psc 10s. The remaining 10 shall be splitt up in 3 times 3 and one will be left over, it is a spare to be used, not if, but when something goes grong. I can imaging mounting this 3s packs underneath in center of gravity.

Ozace writes that he aim to run his throttle at a level the battery packs can maintain the HS, if that means higher gearing and lower % thats what he do and it has worked well for nearly 1 year now. Please tell us more about your setup?

kgfly, I thinK, you must have learned more and more, how I try to get the right components in this project. I am not sure baying a new motor for ~$100 is the rigth way to go, if I allready know it only is temporary for 1 year or 2 I will be
wasting the money. I will prefer to look into, if there is a good motor that I can use for both a123 10s and 13s. I hope there are some who fit in the frame.

I know that asking you about a123 13s is because I have chargers and can asseble 13 s packs, but is it a good pack size for 3d in 1 year or 2?

I agree teory is one thing and practical experience another thing. But I am very happy that the teori so far had show the potentical problem if I want to use a123 10s with a stock align 600L.

What I realy want now is a lot of inputs from peoble with hand on experiences. There must be a lot of peoble out there with some informations they don't think can provide help. But please come with it. I hope, a lot of indivudual experiances even minor inputs, can help us getting the overall picture on what works well?

Please also tell us, what dosn't work.

Carsten

[ozace]

I cannot see the 600l lasting very long on 10s a123 cells.
The motor was tested and had a kv over the rated 1650. on 10s a123 cells the motor rpm would be around the 50,000 mark. This is a very very high figure for an outrunner and there can only be a handful of esc that will spin the motor that fast.

I chose the 10s for simple reasons. 1 , i figure the cost savings on the battery packs accounts for the purchase of a new motor and esc. 2, harvesting the cells is much easier if they are kept in the stock dewalt configuration. 3, as a balance between voltage and capacity 10s made more sense. 4, the pack weight balances the heli and doesnt weigh any more than a 6s 4900 lipo pack.

The 2 spare cells , if you use 8s will work for he reciever but the weight is very high for a reciever pack and i wouldnt bother.

cell counts higher than 10 introduce the pack construction issues that kept me away for 8s or 12s and there will be weight issues to deal with.

[csell]

Hello.

I have started to find out the differences on the different ZPower moters.
There is a litle more information for:

Red Zpower Z30-6S 1100KV 2000W,
Blue Zpower Z30-8S 800KV 2000W,

Zpower Z50T 600KV 2500W,
Zpower Z50-8S 800KV 2200W and
Zpower Z50-10S 600KV 2200W

At this place: http://www.rcdepot.com.tw/index.php/cPath/6_15

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

"Future proofing" is hard. That is, choosing everthing to work now with the thought that it should also work properly under different circumstances later is very hard and in my experience rarely successful. Either the compromise for "now" is poor or the fit for "later" doesn't work as expected or most often, the requirements for what you want to do later change.

Ozace has a wealth of experience and his advice is worth heeding. 10s is simpler than the alternatives and works well with the right ESC and motor. You have chosen an appropriate ESC so now it is down to the motor.

If you decide you want a motor that can run at both 10s and 13-15s (yes, some folk are running 15s for wild power) then you have to research the motor specifications taking note of kv, size, weight, power, max rpm and max current.

For example looking at the Neu and ZPower motors:

-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
Model           KV   Max    US$   Max RPM/Volts/S  Body (LxD mm)  Weight (g)      Pinion estimate 
                     LiPo                                                       @10s  @13s  @15s 
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
Aln 600XL      1650    6    117   40,000/22/8       65 x 44         300           9      
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
Neu 1515H/2YF  1100   14    299   60,000/55/19      69 x 40         360          13     10    9 
Neu 1521/1.5YF 1050   15    300   60,000/57/20      84 x 40         480          14     10    9 
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
ZPw Z30        1110   10    115   42,000/37/13      61 x 43         276          13     10
ZPw Z30A-800    800    8    115   25,000/30/10      61 x 43         280          18
ZPw Z30A-1100  1110    6    115   25,000/37/10      61 x 43         280          13
OBL 43/11-30H  1050    6     96   25,000/22/8       62 x 43         280          14     10
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
ZPw Z50A-600    565   12    135   25,000/37/14      61 x 49         348          25     19
ZPw Z50A-800    780   10    135   25,000/37/13      61 x 49         348          18     14
ZPw Z50B-10S    780   10    135   30,000/37/13      61 x 49         340          18     14
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
OBL 49/08-50H   770   10    146   28,000/37/13      61 x 49         355          18     14
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
Neu 1910H/1Y   1050    8    229   30,000/30/10      45 x 50         284          14      
Neu 1912H/1Y    825   10    249   30,000/36/13      71 x 50         395          17     13 
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 

Notes: 
1) Align 600XL shown for comparison but is not suitable for 10s-15s
2) Align, ZPower and OBL max RPM estimated from the lipo cell rating (ie 6s=22V, 10s=37V)
3) Max S for A123 estimated from Max_Volts/2.8
4) Pinion estimates for 1800-2200rpm from: http://www.dacsa.net/heli/Calculator/default.aspx

Looks as if the new 1912H/1Y model might suit you although 1515/2YF might fit the frame better.

The Z30 looks like the budget option for a 10s-lipo rated replacement for the 600L. Not the stratospheric 3000W performance of some of the other motors but with its 2000W rating it should still be plenty for many pilots.

The Z50B also looks as if it will fit OK and so long as you can get pinions up in the 17-20t range is probably the budget option for wild performance at about half the price of the NEU.

[waelo]

Great information in this tread!

Flying 10s A123/ L600 / CC HV 85 /10t pinion.
After paying some more attention to the heat issue during my last flight I can report that the battery temp is ok, but the ESC and motor is getting realy hot as you figured, can nearly hold it!

Knowing that the motor was getting hot but wasnt paying attention to the ESC

[kgfly]

Ah ha good find on the ZPower motors. Looks like only the Z50B-10S(780kv) is a candidate to span 10s-15s. I have added it to the table above.

[kgfly]

Waelo thanks for the data point. Be careful, if the ESC goes into thermal shutdown you will find yourself practicing an unplanned auto What got by in the winter might not in the summer.

[csell]

Hello.

First thanks to waelo, ozace and kgfly and all others following this tread.

Kgfly a special thanks for your comment: "Future proofing" is hard.
I agree. The only reasen I do it here, is that it is a upgrade, some time
in the future, I can do without going out and bay more stuf.

MOTOR:

I didn´t se the Zpower Z50B-10S 800KV 2000W first time I was there, looks as one of the few motors to consider.

During my search I read a statement somewhere ( I can of cause not find it now ) that the ZPower is the same as Thunder Tiger 2380 OBL 49/08-50 which I found here: http://www.cmehobbies.com/ProductDet...Show=TechSpecs
Both here and in the specifikation for the ZPower it says max 37Volt. 37V divided by 13s = 2,85 volt. Hope you agree that not is a problem for a motor?

PINION:

From http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product...oducts_id=1302

I se that the standard Align Motor Pinion Gear 10T H60055 is Modulus: 0.7

and in the Pinion selection guide:

( http://www.swashplate.co.uk/ehbg-v17/ch30s04.html ) and

http://www.swashplate.co.uk/ehbg-v17/ch30s05.html

In table 30.13. Pinions 5mm bore 0.7 module:

Mikado Logo 20/24 pinions (new)

Teeth Part No.
10T 3010
11T 3011
12T 3012
13T 3013
14T 3014
15T 3015
16T 3016
17T 3017
18T 3018

I find both the size and the part number for pinion from 10T to 18T.

And on http://mikado.e-vendo.de/ Under "Ersatzteile" and "03000 - 03999" all in stock up to 20T, so I see no problem with the pinion, except figuring out what to order?

kgfly suggested that I also ordered some + and - one teeth.

Regards Carsten

[waelo]

Originally Posted by kgfly

Waelo thanks for the data point. Be careful, if the ESC goes into thermal shutdown you will find yourself practicing an unplanned auto What got by in the winter might not in the summer.

Yes,
Only reason I using this motor is I have it alreday. Realy like this tread cause my biggest consern right now is, as you understand chosing the right motor for 10S A123.

Planing to go for NEU 1910/1Y but any reports on the Z50 with 10S would be great cause they have a better price.

The good news is that my last flight this evening with the T600 was 9:41, only lazy eights but anyway

[kgfly]

Carsten - Good find on the pinions.

Good question about whether a motor rated for 10s LiPo is OK on 13s A123:

           Max   Nominal  Loaded
10s Lipo   42      37      35-30
12s A123   42      40      36-29 
13s A123   48      43      39-31

Hmmm, well it might be marginal, I am not sure. I think that the operational loads on a T600 would be high enough (ie over 15A) that the cells would be running at or below 3.0V. Clearly 12s would be OK