6S Setups (Sticky)

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by satgod

I agree 6s on a 450 is perfect
12s on a 450 is alot of extra weight for the performance you get

Well, that all depends on perspective. My 6s/12s prototype frame was built to handle two 1300ma 6s batteries and perfectly balance with the raised tail and 420mm stretch. So whether I fly 6s or 12s makes little difference. Just think of it as a featherweight 500. But with the ability to fly with the 420s spinning at 32 to 3600rpm and do it for a full 15min on 6s and 25min on 12s. And carrying almost the exact same battery load as the 500 class does, but minus a few pounds.

And the action is still faster than it was with the 500 Compass I just flew against it today in front of a crowd of heli guys at our fly in. I even did that on 6s as the new custom 12s motor I just built for it was still laying on my test bench. At 48000rpm it only pulls 2 amps loaded whereas the 6s motors pull 5 to 7 depending on which wind I use. My problem is it is getting almost impossible to hold gears anymore as it just strips them bald.

[SeanM]

Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis

But with the ability to fly with the 420s spinning at 32 to 3600rpm and do it for a full 15min on 6s and 25min on 12s.

Sure sounds nice, but I'll have to wait until I see a 15 minute flight before I believe it... Perhaps if you were swinging the blades below 3000rpm, I could see that being possible..

You would need around 3000mah of capacity in order to get 15 minute flights on 6S. I guess you could have turned your 450 into a battery that flies...

How about some videos to show us your success?

[Luvmyhelis]

I did a full 18 almost 19min run on a brand new 6s 2250 nano. But I was just park flying. When using a gov and flying hard it sucks the amps. This is with the gov off running the 420s and I pulled an ave of 2.5 to 3.2amps. My helis are perfectly setup using ceramic abec 5 to 7s throughout and the entire heli is blueprinted. I have quite a few witnesses. I document everything. I have to say though, none of this was 3d and again this is with the gov off. Just flatlined in the TX. I will have to find the thread but I have the entire castle flight log posted to verify the time ran and headspeed. However the Skookum vibe log failed due to the fact the flight exceeded 15min so Art at Skookum had to write a new program to enable vibe logging beyond 15 minutes. This was posted in the Skookum thread! Helihaven also recorded flights over half an hour long with his 6s version swinging 385s and again with 420mm blades, but at headspeeds closer to 1600 and 1800 with a 2650ma 6s pack and a scorp 2221-2010.

Keep in mind, my motors are custom wound and draw an ave of 2 amps less than their scorp counterparts. Exactly as predicted by Dan at Gobrushless.com who built one of the very first 6s 2210kv test versions I still run well before the 6s rage hit.. It repeatedly posts 3.5a logs at 3200hs ungoverned in one custom heli and 5amps in the other trex frame. (It is impossible to stabilize the align heli at those headspeeds as the two bearing mainshaft support allows the mainshaft to move around and it posts higher amp draws simply due to shaft instability. Even with ceramics throughout and MH delrin gears using a lightened reinforced frame. The point being that you cannot get these kinds of results without extensive modding. Just shoving a few parts in a stock 450 doesn't cut it.

I have done repeated side by side various 6s and 12s motor configs in several frames purpose built for these tests. Also with dozens of different batteries and sizes, esc's, blades, heads, and tail configurations. Flybarred and flybarless, with various heads and even my own custom fabbed DFC version.

Not sure why but tonight the HF search engine keeps pulling up nothing but white empty blank pages. Here are the base 6s build threads where the times were documented and posted. If the search engine works correctly tomorrow I will pinpoint both Helihavens logs and my own. You may want to also pm him for confirmation of his own related test times as he has also done the very thing I am doing but on the east coast. And regularly comments in both these following 6s threads and also the new 12s build threads not listed as this is a 6s sticky.

His findings are almost exactly like mine but his flight times are much longer. We both have different flight styles and goals. Mine isn't to set records like he is. I am now building a 2221 canned 12s prototype motor for his 2 hour plus record attempt with a 450. The 12s 1050kv one I built this morning only pulls an ave of 2amps. But is built for performance, and its lower KV brother should pull almost half that. The 12s 12stator 12magnet version almost didn't register on the amp draw on his Ice50 but the Ice wasn't able to run the phasing needed so he only ran it on 10s during the flight.

It took three tries with Castle esc's failing to phase shift correctly resulting in burnt esc's and motors. And then a special HVCastle esc to pull it off on my end. I ran a custom 863kv 12s 2221 Scorp 12 stator that pulled full runs two days ago with the last IceHV40 Castle sent me just for this purpose. (which also failed BTW in the software that was supplied, just as the earlier versions had failed. This 12s test exposed the latest vs 4.01 software flaw that they are now writing a new version to address it with.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread...312382&page=13

And
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread...=369598&page=3

[helihaven]

Everytime I take mine anywhere and fly it, the first comment I get is "when are ya gonna land dude?" or "just how long will that thing fly?"

Like LMH has already stated though...our birds arent really 450's anymore, they are pretty much uber-light 500's, in fact mine even runs a 500 size boom and tail now.

LMH has pushed his way further than I have though...I';m more interested in longer flights at lower headspeeds, the thoughts of flying mine at over 3000 rpm give me the shakes. at 2500 she is a hummingbird on crack, with just a few degrees of pitch launching her like one of those estes model rockets..usually I fly with 2250 HS using a 9t pinion and 150t main (fast as it will run governed). Using batteries with more miles on em than the space shuttle, i still pull down 15 minute flights regularly...I set my timer for 12 minutes just to be on the safe side.

The batteries just arent here yet for a stock 450 (325mm blades) on 12s. I dont deny that...not that I would ever fly a non stretched 450 anyhow *grins*

[andersn]

do you fly 3d, or "scale" helihaven?

12-15 mins is insane, your head must be tired? :o

[helihaven]

I guess my "style" would fall somewhere inbetween the 2? and yah 12-15 minutes can wear you down, lol...my palms will start to sweat and I'll land...rest up a few minutes..then start back...lol

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by helihaven

LMH has pushed his way further than I have though...*

Says the guy developing a whole new 480 frame with a programmable transmission, dual belt drive (to handle the torque these motors are now producing), and his raised tail systems.

Not to mention his own custom machined heads.

I do admit though. I am slowing my headspeeds down on all my future tests. Now that I know the limits it can work at, as I think I pushed those. One of my points being that 360, 385, 395 and 420mm blades could be ran at those speeds and still be structurally sound. Plus my own flying abilities have degraded due to a medical condition.
Also the introduction of the Skookum fbl gov into the mix changed the need for the stored mass I was looking for in the flight transitions. Now I can get the same and much better performance with speeds around 25 to 2700 as the gov preloads the motor before the pitch changes are actually applied. Problem is, this was the instant I started blowing gears like butter under a hot knife when I engaged it. So now the limits of high output 6s and 12s systems come down to gear or drivetrain strength. Plus the design of the heli in how efficiently it all runs.

LIke you HH, I cannot go back to the non stretched helis. After yesterdays first heli meet up where I live especially.

I took the new custom 6s 420mm stretched fbl heli I built for AP with me. They were all blown away. Especially when I flipped it upside down and matched its blades almost exactly up with the Compass 500 that was there and it outperformed it. But what really got the guys was that it was so quiet they couldn't hear any noise out of it when it was flying. I had this one tuned to run at 2300 with a 1630 6s motor since AP wants a sedate flier. And mechanically it was turning out a low record setting .05 vibe average. So the parts simply ran quiet. All they could hear were the blades whirring away. That was a blast.

(what is funny is that I even call a stretched 450 running 420s at 2300 sedate now)

And three years ago, there were guys on the threads here who swore 6s couldn't work any better than 3.

[helihaven]

hehee well thx for the props bro! we already knew the gears were the weakest link..especially after we eliminated the feathering shaft...i was just blown away by that little -1020 even on 10s...it peeled that main delrin gear like an onion on spoolup...lol

[Stevemech]

Sounds like a gearing thing, need to have gears that are closer together in size so there is more gear mesh such as 2 to 1.The horse power that is avaiable is alot to ask for a plastic main gear to handle but if it where 2 to 1 they would be closer in torque handling.Ive been thinking of making an all metal reduction gear to try a more direct motor connection.
Steve

[helihaven]

yup..you got it exactly! my solution is a 2 stage drive..with at least the final drive (if not both) being belt driven..

[realmoto]

Okay so I finally got my 6s setup on my 450, & after a few things I had to solve I got to fly. But it didn't go very well.
1st was not able to set the ESC to run in gov mode. So I had to just set a straight flat line on my throttle curve.
2nd When it work and started to fly the tail was just out of control. Also I had to constantly move my collective stick up & down to maintain altitude.
Here is a video.

T-Rex 450 Pro 3GX crash (1 min 28 sec)

Any help please?

[Stevemech]

What was the headspeed before and after you went 6s.When the headspeed is above 3000 it does require more concentration and you will get tail wag if coming from a slower headspeed.Hope this helps.
Steve

[u8at711]

what feathering shaft and loctite you guys running on the head ?

Im running the align shaft and stock bolts, with Red loctite,

either the bolts back out on me, or the head of the bolt snaps off.

is there a company out there making a quailtiy part for this? maybe a new head that's not built for the newbie ?

I might not fly good 3d, but I punish this heli, it just can't hold up with the 6s setup thats on it.

[helihaven]

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=412300 damn they oughtta sticky this one...lol

[snoshoe62]

Originally Posted by DiggityDan

Well it's not that I choose to it's that I have no idea how to even begin to setup the gov. And just today my motor took a dump so I need this setup by this weekend!

Edit- I just ordered the scorp hk 2221-10 v2 for my pro with a 11 tooth pinion and a 13 tooth pinion. I'm going to try the 11 first with my setup as is and bought the 13 just in case I figure out how to use the gOv. Thanks alot for everyone's help!

Its actually easier to setup the governor then it is fixed end points as you know what ur rpms are and your efficency....no guess work. So no offense, but if ur gonna use that big arse esc u might as well use the governor...IMO

[Stevemech]

Originally Posted by u8at711

what feathering shaft and loctite you guys running on the head ?

Im running the align shaft and stock bolts, with Red loctite,

either the bolts back out on me, or the head of the bolt snaps off.

is there a company out there making a quailtiy part for this? maybe a new head that's not built for the newbie ?

I might not fly good 3d, but I punish this heli, it just can't hold up with the 6s setup thats on it.

Try the Tarot Dfc head, it isn't necked down and if that doesn't work slow it down, no one wants to get hit by a flying blade!!
Steve

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by Stevemech

Try the Tarot Dfc head, it isn't necked down and if that doesn't work slow it down, no one wants to get hit by a flying blade!!
Steve

That isn't the problem, the problem is the tiny insufficient fs bolts. Lots of guys like me and others (even pro's) were and still are having the fs bolt issue when using stock bolts. Even the 170000lb tensile versions were coming loose using red. The actual small bolt design is flawed, not the shafts. It is not uncommon to run into a batch of either feathering shafts or bolts that are threaded out of spec leaving the interface too loose. And even if they are spot on the extra stress will often snap the tiny 2mm feathering shaft set bolt off right under the head as it wags under grip pressure.
What Helihaven did was to redesign the actual feathering shaft to take a 3mm set bolt that is actually 10mm in length. So just using simple blue on it, it is impossible to break or have the set bolt come loose. Since this changeover even guys like me who run insane headspeeds quit having problems. In my case I run 420mm stretched MsComposites at 3200. I have since had hundreds of flights without a single incident when using Helihavens feathering shafts and 170000lb tensile bolts that I picked up at AmainHobbies. The shafts are precision machined, even taking into account that he re-mills them after the tapping process to keep the OD correct. And they are priced almost exactly the same as the cheezy factory versions.

It doesn't take long for the 6s mod to begin revealing flaws in the factory designs, does it?

[Stevemech]

The tarot head uses 2.5 bolt, but I would never push anything that critical to failure(3700/420mm blades), it's time for a 500 head instead .Seems like a more reliable way to go, heads are already up to the task.I'll checkout those shafts but at my level of flying it will be sometime before I get there.I fly in a valley so is more areobatic type flying ( big air and wind/ slope ).
Steve

[helihaven]

Originally Posted by Stevemech

The tarot head uses 2.5 bolt, but I would never push anything that critical to failure(3700/420mm blades), it's time for a 500 head instead .Seems like a more reliable way to go, heads are already up to the task.I'll checkout those shafts but at my level of flying it will be sometime before I get there.I fly in a valley so is more areobatic type flying ( big air and wind/ slope ).
Steve

That's just it..they havent failed..even at 3200 rpm/420mm blades...but LMH and I both run Rave 450 grips, which are midway between align 450 and 500 grips in size..they use 4x10x4 radial and thrust bearings and have a 7.5mm grip spacing. depending on spacers used, washers etc., the feathering shaft is between 61-62.5mm long, which started all of this to begin with, no one made a FS long enough to use the grips on a non Rave FBL head (Align). In the pic, I also made a DFC head block made from 7075 alloy with 2 bolts at the base to clamp the head tightly to the shaft (which align and Tarot have recently released themselves BTW)

[Luvmyhelis]

We looked into having Bob at RcTek cut us custom 500 heads with 5mm holes instead for use the 450 main shaft. They just weigh too bloody much. Plus the properly built 450 head works just fine once the HH FS mod is done. There are dozens of us using these relatively inexpensive HH feathering shafts now. Most fly at the pro level and punish them, not a single failure as of yet. If you look around here in the 450 pro section you will find lots of posts already from guys having these issues and then upgrading to the HH shafts.