Kontronik vs Castle

[Big Fil]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

I worked for a ISO certified company. Let me tell you, it's a bunch of BS and has NOTHING to do with quality control. Just documented processes.

Yup. I just remember during ISO audits if you saw all the workers at one end of the building that meant the auditors were at the other LOL.

[sandro12321]

Just chiming in here, but you here of 2 or 3 Kotronics failures, and dozens of CC failures, but doesn't Castle sell way more units and maybe this is why there are more failures? It's not like we're talking Align ESC's here. I think maybe Kotronics is better, but why can't there be two good companies? I have run the crap out of CC products in my Cars, which by the way draw way more amps than helis, and in my helis without problem and were talking 90 degrees plus on an erevo 6 cell and a Logo 500 SE 8 cell on an 80 HV and never a problem, and my buddy has the Kotronics 80 HV and I flew it in his 500SE and I didn't notice that much of a difference, but I am also not Alan Szabo 3-D crazy. I think maybe CC puts out a few more lemons than Kotronics but don't compare customer service either, from what I here Kotronics is not good and CC gets back to me and replaces my stuff within a week. But like I said, just my 2 cents. everyone likes what they like.

[desert_flyer]

One of the big problems for CC is the difficulty in setup. Notwithstanding the fact that the governor is complicated and finicky, the real problem lies in the myriad motor settings (timing, frequency etc). I suspect that a lot of fried ESCs result from suboptimal settings that drive the temp of the controller too high. Problem #1 is that very few motor manufacturers list the recommended settings for CC controllers. Problem #2 is that the controller often doesn't work well with the recommended settings. On several occasions I have had to deviate from recommended timing or PWM values to get rid of a high speed wag in governor mode.

The interesting thing of course is that the Jive manages to work without all of this excessive fiddling with timing settings etc. The other thing that bugs me is CC's insistence on the use of a larger pinion in governor mode. I simply don't understand why I can get my Jive to hold 2200rpm on an 11T pinion, but my CC needs a 12T to hold the same RPM. CC says it is the need for overhead? Doesnt the Jive need overhead too? Perhaps the Jive magically increases battery voltage?

In the interests of fairness I will add that CC has A+++ customer service...

[sandro12321]

Yeah I here you on some parts of that but I just put mine on High Gov , enter my motors specs and battery voltage and it does the rest for me. I think when people start trying to set there own rpm's in the gov mode is where the problems come in. On my unit my rpm id avg 2200 on my 500 SE and doesn't vary more than 120 rpm's on hard pitch pumps.

[sandro12321]

And by the way, my ESC never got above 128 degrees last week when it was 100 degrees here in NJ. My scorpion motor on the other hand is at 150 to 170 degrees, but that's how they run so no worries.

[desert_flyer]

Sandro,

My story is just the opposite. I fried a HV80 on gov hi mode, and was told by Clint at CC that I should have used set rpm mode, along with a different PWM freq...

This highlights the problem - everybody has a different opinion on what is the "right" way to set it up. Of course, we all think were doing it "right" until you auto down, like I did, and find that the only thing left of your ESC are the battery and motor wires! (On another note, I am glad that I had an ESC with a separate BEC, but that is another debate!)


The most important thing that I learned - which is (mysteriously) not in the manual or setup pdf - is that you CAN run set RPM mode even if the numbers are red, and the software advises that the headspeed is too high for correct governing. Personally, with issues like this, I think the setup software needs another rethink.

[OnTheSnap]

I spoke with a Castle engineer and their current attitude is that their governor is "great" and little work is being done to improve it.

WHAT ARE THEY SMOKING?

Everyone and their mother complains about tail artifacts caused by too high a gain (even Curtis in his blog discussing the gov on the ENV/TotalG). I've compromised on MUSHY throttle response to get the tail to behave. My gain is at 5 on the Logo and throttle is pretty sloppy.

A $400 fix sucks as well, and I'm hoping that the vBar gov is better then Castle even if it's not as good as Kontronic.

So don't hold your breath for an improved governor from Castle. They're apparently delusional. Feel free to post in their forum that their gov sucks so that they assign some bodies to rethink the whole thing.

[LONEWOLF2440]

I think they suck period

[charles]

I have have been very satisfied with the performance of the Castle controllers. I think the product is of high quality, and the company offers fantastic support. I have used the HV controllers since they were first released, and will continue to trust my helicopters to their controllers.

[Rob Cherry]

Originally Posted by Aaalie

...and now a Kontronik KORATOP 30-34. Although the KORA may only run at 8 cell Lipo, I use it for a long time at 12 lipo's. Kind of revenge (burn, you sucker )....

Kind regards,
Aldert

LMAO, I love it. Reminds me of when I graduated to my Protos 500 from a blade 400, I took the blade out and just pounded the snot out of it until it just couldn't handle any more. Tic tocs just 6 inches above the ground back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, it was just crying to die! Then the ground snatched the tail (might have been on purpose) and the cheap plastic bastard just disentigrated. I hated that thing, eflite can rot with all of their CA'd parts.

[OnTheSnap]

What scares me more is that most all 700E owners run Crispy Creations 80HV ESCs. In addition I keep seeing more N00B's with them at the park! WTF! Align has managed to make 700's more accessible to the masses and now I'm scared s?!tless.

[Mystic3D]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

I spoke with a Castle engineer and their current attitude is that their governor is "great" and little work is being done to improve it.

WHAT ARE THEY SMOKING?

LMAO +1

The demise of a company is when arrogance gets in the way of listening to customers.

But A+ for CC Customer Support. I have to rate that higher as sending back to Germany for a Jive Version 9 update is just painful.....

[mmazurek]

Well apparently they're smokin' decent stuff, cuz they just released another update with improvements to the governor.

So much for arrogance and not listening to customers.

Tried the update, seems to work as expected. Noticed I could run a little higher governor gain without wag.

Once again, I fly both and both work.

[OnTheSnap]

Huh? Nowhere in the release notes did they indicate gov improvements. Just less overshoot at spool up and a patch for autorotation mode.

Your improved results are likely a placebo effect.

[mmazurek]

The higher gain without wag is probably the Atom just running real smooth right now.

Skookum vibration level is averaging 0.3 - 0.8 right now. Lowest I've seen so far.

Yeah, no more spool overshoot & whatever 'Default value for Governor Gain was not set correctly' means.

[litespeed]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Huh? Nowhere in the release notes did they indicate gov improvements. Just less overshoot at spool up and a patch for autorotation mode.

Your improved results are likely a placebo effect.

From the Castle page, http://www.castlecreations.com/downl...h-phoenix.html

# Improvement: Governor mode will follow headspeed change rate during headspeed reductions as well as headspeed increases
# Improvement: Reduced overshoot when approaching set rpm in governor mode
Bug Fix: Default value for Governor Gain was not set correctly.

I'd call that an improvement but to each his own.

So much for the "placebo effect" theory!

Tom

[Mr.Andersen]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Huh? Nowhere in the release notes did they indicate gov improvements. Just less overshoot at spool up and a patch for autorotation mode.

Your improved results are likely a placebo effect.

So overshooting the headspeed on spoolup and going from heavy to light load on the disc is normal fore CC governors?
Im just trying out governor mode on a CC Phoenix 45 on my 450 and it does exactly that.

[Dirtmagnet400]

Originally Posted by Mr.Andersen

So overshooting the headspeed on spoolup and going from heavy to light load on the disc is normal fore CC governors?
Im just trying out governor mode on a CC Phoenix 45 on my 450 and it does exactly that.

YES!! and yet ANOTHER reason, albeit very minimal reason, why i don't use their gov mode anymore. My headspeed would overshoot on spoolup so badly it sounded violent! I thought i was going to strip my maingear a few times. When you unload the head on a Castle governor the headspeed will increase, which really isn't a big deal, but on a Jive, you can hear the motor basically shutdown for a split second, then re-engage when it senses headspeed getting low. It's really weird to hear but incredibly effective. I'm glad they finally fixed the overshoot on spoolup, but other than that, according to their website literature, NOTHING in that update actually improves the governor function during flight....sorry.

[mmazurek]

Wow. I was just pointing out that they obviously DO listen do customers and are still trying to improve their governor.

I don't understand why the polarity.

I only fly in governor mode.

I now have a Jive. I still have two Castle ICE's.

If I want a better governor (and have about twice the money) I'll use a Kontronic.
If I want to save some money and/or have the logging features, I'll use a Castle.

I also LOVE my new Logo600.
I still love my Compass Atom.

Spread the love guys.




(... I do hate my Trex 450 now though )

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by litespeed

From the Castle page, http://www.castlecreations.com/downl...h-phoenix.html

# Improvement: Governor mode will follow headspeed change rate during headspeed reductions as well as headspeed increases
# Improvement: Reduced overshoot when approaching set rpm in governor mode
Bug Fix: Default value for Governor Gain was not set correctly.

I'd call that an improvement but to each his own.

So much for the "placebo effect" theory!

Tom

As Dirtnap noted, none of these changes impact flight performance. I'm flying the beta and it's just as sloppy as before.

On a positive note, the Castle feature list is much more impressive then Kontronic. A tangible feature I really like and use is the autorotation mode. I'm trying to get over the hump on inverted autos and this is a really neat feature.