Breakthrough!! Flymentor w/ FBL

[jolyboy]

I use an internal 3A BEC built into the ESC, but it gets pretty hot. FM and the ZYX only draw small currents, and I've flown my heli for ages without a brown out (touch wood).

James, your setup is very tidy! I would like to go to that effort, but currently I'm upgrading the heli for more gear (fpv etc). Thats funny, I never really take off from perfectly flat ground (usually a bumpy paddock) coz FM sorts itself out after a few seconds of flying.

I'll try get some pics up soon also but I left the SD card at work (mine isnt as tidy as James'). Here is a pic for now until I can take a better one:



Note that half of the mess is from the FPV gear

My stab setup is as follows:
Rx on right side of frame
ZYX on left side of frame
FM in middle of frame on the "shelf" with gyro at front of heli on the same "shelf"
ESC under frame (between the skids)

Joly

[Jamesb463]

If the BEC is already running hot and you plan to install more gear, I really do recommend a 5 Amp ubec.

The ubec should never be drawing its Max constantly. Think of a PC CPU. It should never be overworked. Its a case of 'When' not 'if' with regards to a low rated BEC failing. For what little it costs just do it.

Build for the Crash, not for the Flight!

[salience]

Originally Posted by Jamesb463

If the BEC is already running hot and you plan to install more gear, I really do recommend a 5 Amp ubec.

Very much in agreement, even for a 450. Mine is a 500, so with FM+ZYX+Rx+Quark and larger servos than the 450s I'm using a Turnigy 5 - 7.5A BEC. Nice thing about the 500 size is that you can still fit most of this stuff inside the frames. I'll post a pic after I finish adding the ZYX to the setup. Previously I was flybarred with just the FM+Quark and 7ch Rx.

[Jamesb463]

I see you're using the ZYX. I don't have one but I do have a KDS Ebar FBL controller on another heli which is really good and would like some pointers for using it with FM & a GP780 gyro. (Or without the GP780- whichever is easiest).

Its the correct connecting of the Ebar and FM that puzzles me. Is it Ebar to gyros or FM to gyros? I'm also not sure about deadband on the Ebar. Will have to do some searching.

I think that if I wire it as if it was a ZYX then it should work, as most FBL units are similar. The fact that they are both KDS may be good or bad. They may not be compatible wired together. Or they could be pure harmony! I think experimentation is on the cards, and a large box for the bits of heli afterwards!!


Any help is much appreciated.

(salience- Don't forget your pics!)

[jolyboy]

Originally Posted by Jamesb463

If the BEC is already running hot and you plan to install more gear, I really do recommend a 5 Amp ubec.

The ubec should never be drawing its Max constantly. Think of a PC CPU. It should never be overworked. Its a case of 'When' not 'if' with regards to a low rated BEC failing. For what little it costs just do it.

Build for the Crash, not for the Flight!

The extra gear runs of a different circuit

Joly

Sent from my GT-S5570 using Tapatalk 2

[jolyboy]

As promised heres my setup (note the tail servo and lol):

[salience]

Originally Posted by jolyboy

As promised here's my setup (note the tail servo and lol):

Yep, not a helluva lot of room on these 450s. But you got it all in (or maybe I should say "out" ;>). Should be a lot easier on my HK500. Let us know how your Turnigy et al. stuff holds up. There are some "in-crowd" fliers around here who are ranting about 60% failures with such stuff. I have quite a few "cheap" parts myself and so far only a Turnigy DLux ESC has given a problem, fortunately just after touchdown. And it wasn't the burst-into-flames syndrome either!
best regards.

[jolyboy]

Originally Posted by salience

Yep, not a helluva lot of room on these 450s. But you got it all in (or maybe I should say "out" ;>). Should be a lot easier on my HK500. Let us know how your Turnigy et al. stuff holds up. There are some "in-crowd" fliers around here who are ranting about 60% failures with such stuff. I have quite a few "cheap" parts myself and so far only a Turnigy DLux ESC has given a problem, fortunately just after touchdown. And it wasn't the burst-into-flames syndrome either!
best regards.

Thanks for the heads up So far I have about 30+ flights on the current setup, with 2crashes. only parts replaced are 2 servos, 1 set of main blades and 1 servo horn. I dont fly around any people, as this heli is only for FPV, so the only person around is my spotter(s). This heli was originally bought as a beater, but has since become my main heli. You are right in saying the parts dont last all that long though...

Upcoming upgrades are:
New motor (2100kv for slow headspeed)
Bigger ESC (45A instead of 30A)
New tail (current one is worn out)
Helical main gear and pinion
Decent tail servo (current one is ok for soft FPV, but I want better)

Back to on topic, note I'l be keeping the FBL Flymentor setup. Its awesome

[salience]

Originally Posted by jolyboy

Upcoming upgrades are:
New motor (2100kv for slow headspeed)
Bigger ESC (45A instead of 30A)
New tail (current one is worn out)
Helical main gear and pinion
Decent tail servo (current one is ok for soft FPV, but I want better)

Back to on topic, note I'l be keeping the FBL Flymentor setup. Its awesome

Yes, your FBL / FM combo success had me online immediately for a DFC head for the HK500! Still a few steps to go before it's ready. I was flying it flybarred with the FM until the 100A DLux failed. Yesterday I mounted its replacement - a 70AHV K-Force Turnigy ESC - and a Turnigy 5 - 7.5A BEC both inside under the battery tray - a bit tight but it came out ok. I think I can get FM, Quark, ZYX, and Orange 7ch Rx all inside in the aft section too, with the ZYX on a custom-made plate attached to the anti-rotation bracket. I think these FBL controllers are supposed to work best when as close as possible to the mainshaft. BTW I've got the Turnigy 40A K-Force on my HK450 (also DFC but with a Spektrum AR7200BX so no FM possible there) and it - the Turnigy K-Force - has been working very well - very smooth start up and speed control. The KForce series of ESCs seems to be the same as the more expensive HobbyWing Platinums that some folks here have been very happy with. You may want to take a glance at the K-Force as a contender for the upgrade. With some minor frame surgery you can get it in under the battery tray.

[jolyboy]

Originally Posted by salience

Yes, your FBL / FM combo success had me online immediately for a DFC head for the HK500! Still a few steps to go before it's ready. I was flying it flybarred with the FM until the 100A DLux failed. Yesterday I mounted its replacement - a 70AHV K-Force Turnigy ESC - and a Turnigy 5 - 7.5A BEC both inside under the battery tray - a bit tight but it came out ok. I think I can get FM, Quark, ZYX, and Orange 7ch Rx all inside in the aft section too, with the ZYX on a custom-made plate attached to the anti-rotation bracket. I think these FBL controllers are supposed to work best when as close as possible to the mainshaft. BTW I've got the Turnigy 40A K-Force on my HK450 (also DFC but with a Spektrum AR7200BX so no FM possible there) and it - the Turnigy K-Force - has been working very well - very smooth start up and speed control. The KForce series of ESCs seems to be the same as the more expensive HobbyWing Platinums that some folks here have been very happy with. You may want to take a glance at the K-Force as a contender for the upgrade. With some minor frame surgery you can get it in under the battery tray.

Hope the build goes well for you! Here is a vid of mine, trying to eliminate vibes:



Joly

[Angrydad]

Thanks for all the pics and tips, everyone
I'm a total noob at this, so any info is greatly appreciated. I've got a 450 X that I'm learning "True" CP flying on, but if I can get this setup working on one of my HK 450's I'll have something that I can at least hover while I'm waiting on replacement parts, whenever I crash the X lol Nice to have something that's (Hopefully) easy to fly, for stress relief

[Luvmyhelis]

Shoot, I did something similar about a year ago. But used an old Sk360 for the fbl control. Easy cheesy as they say. No one seemed interested so I never posted up the build.

Nice work here!

[Ivor Hill]

Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis

Shoot, I did something similar about a year ago. But used an old Sk360 for the fbl control. Easy cheesy as they say. No one seemed interested so I never posted up the build.

Nice work here!

Hi LMH, did it work or did it take away some of the very stable control that FM suppys with a flybar ?. Is it good enough for precisional scale flying.
Not convinced by the vids yet would like to see an extended positional hover and some circuit flying.

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by Ivor Hill

Hi LMH, did it work or did it take away some of the very stable control that FM suppys with a flybar ?. Is it good enough for precisional scale flying.
Not convinced by the vids yet would like to see an extended positional hover and some circuit flying.

I would say it would be ideal for scale and park flying, any harsh sport flying is certainly out as it still scrambles the controller. Cyclic control is much much more precise. I think that may depend on the fbl controller and servos though. But the flymentor itself was never designed to be pushed this way successfully.

I used the MksDs95i on the tail and a Kds900avcs tail gyro.

But again, just like it is in flybarred form. If you push this it is easy to get it out of sorts and the results aren't pretty. Cost me a scale MD500 finding out. The setup is pretty straightforward. The flymentor runs its cyclic commands into the fbl system as interpreted by the RX. Then the fbl system phases the signal for the actual fbl head. When I looked at the costs of doing this I scrapped it and just went into a full fbl system. I pretty much looked at it as a novelty as I had the parts laying around and not as a viable solution due to the problems advanced pilots have when actually getting into quick pattern flight commands.

[jolyboy]

Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis

I would say it would be ideal for scale and park flying, any harsh sport flying is certainly out as it still scrambles the controller. Cyclic control is much much more precise. I think that may depend on the fbl controller and servos though. But the flymentor itself was never designed to be pushed this way successfully.

I completely agree. I managed to accidentally go inverted when flying fpv during a hard stall turn.

All i could see was blue downwards. My reaction was: "Where the f has the ground gone.... oh no..." Pulled hard on elevator and it came good. My dad said the heli pulled up about 2 meters above the ground and it was moving very VERY fast. But for softer flying its amazing.


Sent from my GT-S5570 using Tapatalk 2

[salience]

Originally Posted by jolyboy

Hope the build goes well for you! Here is a vid of mine, trying to eliminate vibes:
Joly

Any new FM settings found Joly?

I've completed the build, no test yet since I thought you might have an update:

Flymentor (FM) + ZYX + Quark (Q)
You might ask, why would anyone want to do this? It was just the path of least resistance in this case: I had a HK500FB all set up with FM + Q and after a couple of test flights that were promising, there was an ESC incident (I leave it to your imagination). Since I had to do some surgery, and had cast a suspicious eye several times on some of the parts in the HK FB head, and having as well devloped a distinct dislike for how easily flybars are bent ;>)... and just then jolyboy posted his "Breakthrough!!" announcement, AND I just happened to have an unused ZYX in the drawer... Well, I ordered a DFC, and since the Q and the FM Gyro and optical unit were already neatly tucked away on the lower deck on a custom anti-vibe platform, and preferring to leave them intact... I decided to give it a try.

Firstly - definitely update your ZYX-S firmware to 3.5. Concerning Rudder, the ZYX won't boot up without being connected to (I first thought) the Rx Rudder channel. I first contemplated just connecting both the ZYX and the Q to the Rud and Gyro channels, but decided to do some setup first and see where that went. I decided first just to connect the cyclics straight to the Rx and get the servo arms and DFC rods placed. Next I took jolyboy's advice and setup FM first, (actually it had already been through setup) but this path ran into some complications I still don't understand. So, I decided a logical first step might instead be to bypass FM, setup ZYX direct to Rx with the USB connection and software, and then add the FM as a second phase, adjusting it so that the setup parameters in ZYX would be conserved and give the same correct results concerning servo center and reverse, travel, stick direction, swash level... During this setup you add some sub-trim on the Tx, set servo midpoints etc to level swash, and several other settings that are obvious as you go through the USB setup. The logic of this method was that if ZYX is correctly setup and then you add FM and set it so it is basically "transparent" to the signal path, then ZYX ought to remain correctly set. This seems to be the case. Just a little detail that some might ignore: when you need to center the pitch stick at 50%, do so by observing the travel in the pitch curve window, NOT the monitor (which is different and includes the subtrims you set in ZYX). I'm using a DX7S btw.

AS jolyboy notes, you must set the FM to 1 servo. I found that when I did this then FM channel 2&3 swapped places: channel1 = AIL, channel2 = ELE and channel3 = PIT
I adjusted FM servo trim and other settings so that ZYX was producing exactly the same result at the cyclics as when it was setup alone. And, a bonus: I discovered that ZYX just needs any old signal at all at its RUDDER port to believe it is connected to the rudder & gyro channels, and so boot up. Thus, you can just run a single wire from the RUDDER port on the ZYX to the FM port 5, and connect Q to the Rx normally. ZYX boots, swash centers, and all looks good for a test. I've set the advanced parameters of FM according to jolyboy's suggestions, so will soon be doing a few quickie up and downs to test stability before I fly out over the ravine...

[jolyboy]

After more flying, ill note that during slow hard turns with the heli leaning at 90° to the horizon, FM can't decide whether it wants to keep the heli upright or inverted. That makes for some fighting and twitchiness during this hard turns. That said, unless you are going for those hard banked turns it wont be an issue. I got around it by turning the "balance sense" down to 70.

Good write up salience

Yes, I forgot how FM changes the pitch/ail/elevator around in 1ch 90° swash. It took a fair bit of trail and error to figure it out.

Just to confirm, did you test fly the flybarless setup prior to fitting FM? Its a good idea to make sure the gains are set properly in zyx first. If you have, that's good.

Joly

Good luck with the tests, I think you'll like it!

Sent from my GT-S5570 using Tapatalk 2

[salience]

Originally Posted by jolyboy

<snip>That said, unless you are going for those hard banked turns it wont be an issue. I got around it by turning the "balance sense" down to 70.
<snip>
Just to confirm, did you test fly the flybarless setup prior to fitting FM? Its a good idea to make sure the gains are set properly in zyx first. If you have, that's good.

90° banked turns - whoooaa (to quote Butthead) - I'm nowhere near that yet.
I think I should be able to test fly the ZYX as if alone by setting the FM to off position. At least that's what I'll try.
best regards Joly!
peter

[jolyboy]

Let us know how you get on

[alchemy66]

Would this work with a Skookum 540?