500 3D - headspeed feels low

[sharicasmi]

Is it the batteries or did I not solder a good enough connection somewhere? I got a new 500 3d BNF basic, and I've been waiting for the 35c batteries to come from HK. Meanwhile I used these 25c 3300 nano-techs and I've noticed that the headspeed sounds the same at 80% and 100%. I've had to set DX6i gyro gain from 68% to 72% and the tail still feels a little lazy. The batteries come down with 3.78v/cell after 4min. I changed the battery connections to XT-60 since it worked so well with my 450 GT and 300x.
This is its first flight with stock settings
[Youtube]

Blade500 3d maiden flight (5 min 2 sec)

[Precipitate]

Finally got mine out tonight and the head speed seems lower than the 500X. There is one pinion tooth difference between the two I believe. Will tach it soon and let you know.

[eness76]

switch to the 500x pinion and she comes to life! I had the exact same experience.

[Precipitate]

Originally Posted by eness76

switch to the 500x pinion and she comes to life! I had the exact same experience.

Thanks pal. I wonder how well the ESC deals with that. Have you been running that for sometime?

[Precipitate]

The X has a 13 tooth and the 3D has a 12. Flybar has a little more weight to turn so hmmm.

[eness76]

I have a couple visits to the field on the setup with no issues. I also moved in the flybar weights and moved out one hole on the tail servo horn. It is like a whole different helicopter. So much collective authority it is scary and the flip rate really went thru the roof. My tail wouldnt throw the pitch slider to the endpoints with the servo horn in the stock position, regardless of gyro pot or transmitter endpoint adjustments. This really improved its piro rate, which i found doggish on my machune before this host of adjustments. The gain is now in the mid 50s instead of 70s. There is still a slight drift despite my best efforts to correct, i think the gyro isnt the best unit in the world. Heck of a total package, though, for the price.

[sharicasmi]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'm interested in the 13t pinion, though I'm concerned because the motor bogs a little bit with the 12t.
Thanks eness76 I'll try both of your suggestions. My HK 500 flies better without flybar weights. When i got the 500 3d I was wondering why they only went to the first hole on the servo arm. I can see how the servo would operate with higher speed and torque if it was moved out 1 hole. The only thing sacrificed is maybe a bit of servo resolution. I'll try it, I like this idea.

[Superholgi]

Originally Posted by sharicasmi

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'm interested in the 13t pinion, though I'm concerned because the motor bogs a little bit with the 12t.
Thanks eness76 I'll try both of your suggestions. My HK 500 flies better without flybar weights. When i got the 500 3d I was wondering why they only went to the first hole on the servo arm. I can see how the servo would operate with higher speed and torque if it was moved out 1 hole. The only thing sacrificed is maybe a bit of servo resolution. I'll try it, I like this idea.

If it bogs... do you have a flat gas curve or a V ? On my 500x, I had to use a V curve because of bogging. The lady is a beast, but her power is not endless.

[sharicasmi]

I moved the tail control rod out 1 hole on the tail servo horn and installed some el cheapo 5$ 500 CF tail blades, it holds at 71% dx6i gyro gain. Any higher and it starts wagging after pitch pumps. It seems to hold better though.

I think I just need that 13t pinion and some proper 35-65c batteries and it will be able to handle tick tocks like it should.

[sharicasmi]

Flat 100% throttle curve. I also have a spare turnigy typhoon 500 motor that never bogs. Should I try it out?

[eness76]

I had bogging too on the stock gearing, but the larger pinion on a flat 100% throttle curve really hauls a$$ for me. For what its worth, I'm running 3300mah 30c packs from value hobbies. Real quality packs, cells balance and maintain balance very well.

[Superholgi]

Originally Posted by sharicasmi

Flat 100% throttle curve. I also have a spare turnigy typhoon 500 motor that never bogs. Should I try it out?

The 500x won't run smooth under heavy load at flat 100% throttle, I realized that fairly quickly. I suspect the ESC can't handle it because it doesn't have a governor mode, and a stronger engine won't help, that's my thinking. But, when it comes to motor/ESC combinations, my knowledge ends.
This is the point where old TomC should rush in. Tom ?

[sharicasmi]

I just tried it with flybar weights moved in, new 30c Zippy 2800's, and the tail servo rod attached to the 2nd hole on the tail servo arm. The flybar weight mod is awesome! It feels way easier to fly now, less having to watch it. When I started out on a blade 450 3d years ago, it felt like I was constantly fighting the flybar, I was convinced that its trying to crash my heli.
The flybar seems to be working as it should now. It's hard to describe, it feels like it'll headlock for a few seconds like a fbl machine, but then it levels out/drifts. My 450 3d without weights tends cause the flybar to drift after heavy stops, descents or speed changes.
The tail is another story. This tail is still a little sloppy in heavy collective movements, and it now has a tendency to wag after doing pitch pumps or FFF. I'm going to try it on the first hole and see if it stops the wagging.

[Superholgi]

Originally Posted by sharicasmi

I just tried it with flybar weights moved in, new 30c Zippy 2800's, and the tail servo rod attached to the 2nd hole on the tail servo arm. The flybar weight mod is awesome! It feels way easier to fly now, less having to watch it. When I started out on a blade 450 3d years ago, it felt like I was constantly fighting the flybar, I was convinced that its trying to crash my heli.
The flybar seems to be working as it should now. It's hard to describe, it feels like it'll headlock for a few seconds like a fbl machine, but then it levels out/drifts. My 450 3d without weights tends cause the flybar to drift after heavy stops, descents or speed changes.
The tail is another story. This tail is still a little sloppy in heavy collective movements, and it now has a tendency to wag after doing pitch pumps or FFF. I'm going to try it on the first hole and see if it stops the wagging.

Oh, that's interesting to hear! I never moved my flybar weights in on my 450 3D but like you, I was convinced the old flybar hated me. It would roll the heli to the side every time I couldn't see it well, or cut under in fast forward flight. And since flybarred helis are a pest to sell, I finally converted it to a 450x and now I have two of them. I wish I had tried on the weights like you...
What you're saying about the post-stress-action-wag sounds like your headspeed drops in. Gyros have a hard time when this happens. With a BeastX, you have a handful of options & dials to compensate for this, but with a flybar gyro... well...
Again, I think this can be reduced if you put a V-shaped gas curve on it. Maybe someone with a 500 3D can help with a suggestion for good V shape values? I don't have one.
If you'd like to try it out, go for a 100-90-80-90-100 gas curve and try some pitch pumps. The wag should reduce. It can be changed back in seconds if I'm wrong. But I bet I am right

[sharicasmi]

I just tried it with the tail control rod back on the first hole on the servo arm, and took off the el cheapo CF tail blades. I turned gain up from 70.5% to 75% dx6i. I noticed immediately, the wag is gone. My 450 3d also wags a little, so I'm thinking about moving the tail control rod down on that bird too.
I think having the tail control rod too high on the servo arm was reducing the output resolution of the tail gyro too much, causing a wag during fff and pitch pumps. This gyro apparently needs a huge range of travel to function properly. It's still abit lazy at 75% dx6i gain, so I'm still tweaking the gain.

This still leaves the mystery about why the motor sounds the same at 80% and 100% throttle. One theory I've come up with is that maybe the throttle range wasn't properly set at the factory. Does anyone know how to set throttle range on these e-flite speed controllers?

Fantastic bird once she's working properly though. Seems absolutely trouble free. I'm used to flybarred and FBL 450's and smaller sized helis. The main rotor feels just as stable as smaller flybarless helis. It feels incredibly stable compared to the drifty 450 3d.

[Superholgi]

Originally Posted by sharicasmi

...
This still leaves the mystery about why the motor sounds the same at 80% and 100% throttle. One theory I've come up with is that maybe the throttle range wasn't properly set at the factory. Does anyone know how to set throttle range on these e-flite speed controllers?
...

Sure, give it a try:
http://www.horizonhobby.com/pdf/EFLA370H-Manual.pdf

[sharicasmi]

After setting throttle range myself, the ESC now seems to work as it should, and i can now hear the difference in headspeed between 80% throttle (normal mode) and 100% (idle up.) I moved the tail servo control rod to the first hole on the other side of the servo arm. I've tried the following tail servo positions; stock position 8mm from center, first hole on another side of the servo arm, 10mm from center, and second hole from stock position 12mm from center.
The closer you get to the center of the servo, the more precise the gyro performs, however it makes the tail lazy during high speed flips or tick tocks, and it can sometimes cause the heli to lose 20 or 40 degrees of rotation per tick tock. The further out away from the center of the servo you go, you'll find the tail servo wags in pitch pumps, flips, tick tocks and FFF.
At 10 mm from center, it only wags a little bit if you really push it. Tail is still on the lazy side during tick tocks but only undercompensates to the point of losing 10 degrees per tick tock. At 12mm from center it's constantly over compensating, which makes it so doggish it's constantly wagging its tail. It also holds very well in tick tocks, and never loses its rotational coordination during stunts.
So take your choice, speed/torque, or precision.