MSRx MSR X Potential Toilet Bowl Effect Cause and Fix.

[Lyon[Nightroad]]

Really loving my new MSRx. I was afraid it would have no place between my MSR and MCPx. But it does. Best part is: going from autorotation to max throttle with a stick bang causes 10 degrees max torque yaw. Piro rate is slower but livable. Anyway, I've already cannibalized the blade grips from my MSR to repair the X (yep the ball still breaks off the blade grips). Shows the love my MSR will be getting .

Then suddenly my love came to a hault. After a damage free crash, I tried to hover, Toilet Bowl Effect began. WTF!? I was angry/scared beyond believe. Not this again! Then I look down at my DX4e and notice the tail trim is slightly to the left/ccw. Didn't check for this because the tail was holding true even with the trim. Corrected the trim. TBE Gone. Woot! So, Trim on flybarless = TBE. If you get TBE check your trims and the usual (links, main gear secured, blade tightness, etc.)

On a side note my spare DX4e with the expo turned on and high rates is a fine Tx for this heli.

[pixeltim]

I was frustrated about this very thing tonight, then I found this post. I'm using my DX6i and double checked, sure enough, there was one click of trim on the rudder, I turned that off and she flies great, notwithstanding my amateur pilot status of course....

[timmyd463229]

I just bought a msr x yestderday I sold my mcx i bought last week because i wanted something faster and more agile, I am experiencing tbe and i do not have a digital transmitter just the stock one it comes with do you have any tips to help that or any tips at all of flying this little thing I know I have a long time to go before i learn to fly this but any info would help thankx

[carbncl]

I might have fixed a TBE effect reseting some trim thanks to your advice!

To admins/mods: This thread should be moved in the mSR X subforum!

[Imzzaudae]

TIMMYD
What you are calling TBE is more likely a newbe chasing the heli with the stick.
Sorry not picking on you. I noticed this when I first started flying MSR.
Fly ahead a few feet then try and hover again, do not make circles with stick it makes helicopter do circles!

See if this helps you.

[timmyd463229]

I figured out the tbe was due to the fact that I didn't let the swashplate calibrate after putting battery in

[Butchr]

Turn off all trim and it will not do it
I had it happen once and I had been messing with trim
It sees it as control input and WILL try to correct
Do not use trim
After two weeks with no experience I can hover
All
Day 6 inches off the ground
The helicopter is very controllable
But don't compare to a coax
It is hands on and now after two weeks and very little damage fortunately I can zip
It around my backyard with total control
Go figure I just get the hang of it and the main motor goes

[camelflight]

Thanks, Lyon! I zeroed-out all of my trims, disconnected & reconnected my flight battery, and my mSRx was cured of its Toilet Bowel Effect (TBE).

I wish I had tried that sooner. I'd already replaced the rotor blades and rotor grips to no effect.

My transmitter is a Spektrum DX6i, btw.

[BONEDADDY]

What's causing this effect when using the trims. And if you need to trim it out how do you do it if you have to leave your trims at neutral?. I have one that I replaced the tail boom with a microheli boom and it was all over the place uncontrollable, so I built another Microheli boom I had and put it on. Total TBE with my JR9503 radio, so I switched back to the regular tail boom and the regular little eflight radio and it's controllable again. WTH?

All Iv'e ever flown so far are fixed pitch birds, and I must say this little MSRX has been the hardest to control I've ever had. even my larger Walkeras fly better than this thing does. Anyone have any good setups for the MSR, MSRX and 120SR for the JRX9503 Radio? I just get into the hobby and find a nice little helicopter that I really enjoy and HH takes it away from us. MSR RULES!!!!!!!!!! RIP

[Edwii]

Alright I shall help you all:
First step for thos who didnt read the manual(like myself at first) you are to have NO TRIM none at all set on your controller, all settings on the trim should be at zero NO MATER WHAT, after that is done we can continue:

So for first time owners first thing you do is take out that silly tailboom, and if your lazy just buy an mcpx tailboom, but if your not and want the better stronger option, get some 2mm rod and cut it to 120-125mm this will extend your tail beyond stock, file flat spots on the opposite ends of the rod on the same side and wrap the tail wire around the boom and gentle reattach the motor( be careful not to damage the wire and cause a short, when i do this upgrade i like to put on better wire as well), you will notice that poor lil tail motor not working nearly as hard, and it will be far more stable.(This is not going to effect the "toilet bowl" effect as much as the next step:

Second, once you have done that(your a fool to skip that step but this next step can be done with out doing it) you need to level out your swash plate, which means you need to adjust your servo rods. How to adjust the rods is simple
1. get the bird in the air,and get it to hover as stable as possible

2. give it some slow rudder( make it spin clock wise(later on you can fine tune with counter clock but for now stick with this) take notice of which way the mSRX pitches(travels)

3. Land it and adjust the servo rod.

For example your in the air and start getting it to spin clockwise, and it starts to travel left(pitch left) that means you need to adjust the aileron servo(servo on the left of the board) because its going left you would need to raise the rod, and lower if it was going right, same concept applies for when pitching forward or backward on the elevator servo( the servo on the right of the board)

4. Repeat steps 1 to 3 until you can give it rudder in the air and it will almost not pitch in any direction at all.

toilet bowl effect should be gone now.

[Liduno]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjhiWlKdu9w&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

[BONEDADDY]

I'm learning a lot on this thread, but am still not quite grasping why they would make it so you have to only adjust the servo arms to trim the bird out. Sort of defeats the purpose of buying a nice radio and be able to do the fine tuning on it. I know it's better to get the swash to it's perfect point before flight, but no one can get it set absolutely perfect, you have to use one or two clicks of trim from time to time right? Every rotation of the servo arms has to be a full turn, what if yours doesn't need a full turn only a half, hence you just have to deal with it in flight and not be able to correct it in trim. This means you better also get your battery in a perfect spot every time as well, but not all batteries are the same weight or length, trim elevator no good either. I guess I'm more confused. Sorry guy's 50 year old newbe learning curves are slow, especially with brain farts added. LOL

[BONEDADDY]

I got it finally, I understand now, you don't have any trim in it before you bind it. Once you bind it you can use the trims. Mines working fine now except when you go to right rudder the darn thing wants to speed up and fly into the ground, man this thing is like a angry little wasp. I think it's trying to kill me. I am magnet for it. every time I turn it to nose hover it takes off straight for me. I have to dodge it. good thing this isn't a big CP or I'd be walking around headless. LOL

[Liduno]

I think much like the mcpx there are different boards with the msrx, I suspect some will allow you to use some rudder trim with out the strange swash behavior.

I have 2 mcpx v2 boards, one says v2 1.3 and the other says v2 1.5, maybe there are different upgraded boards for the msrx also.

[toys2cars2toys]

Originally Posted by BONEDADDY

I got it finally, I understand now, you don't have any trim in it before you bind it. Once you bind it you can use the trims. Mines working fine now except when you go to right rudder the darn thing wants to speed up and fly into the ground, man this thing is like a angry little wasp. I think it's trying to kill me. I am magnet for it. every time I turn it to nose hover it takes off straight for me. I have to dodge it. good thing this isn't a big CP or I'd be walking around headless. LOL

Sorry but NO, you're not meant to use trims ever on the msrx

Having a flybarless controller, the board "see's" these inputs as commands and can cause problems

as edwii and liduno have mentioned you have to ajust the linkages to stop cyclic drift, there's nothing you can do (other than swapping the tail) if it drifts in yaw

I haven't swapped my tail and don't have a problem, but I don't tend to leave it in a hover so may not notice if the tail drifts a little


The cause of this can be seen in the video Liduno posted, this heli has an odd feature (or bug maybe) when rudder is applied, the swash moves to a neutral position and then carries on controling in a reduced mode - this is odd, but once the swash links are adjusted is far less noticable

It's discussed in length here
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=372983

[billj747]

Does the stock transmitter reset the trims when you turn the controller off or unplug the battery on the heli?

My mSRX with RHK grips started to get harder to control where I was chasing it around a lot. I could fly it okay and piro alright CCW with minimal back-right drifting but I just felt like I started to suck the more I crashed it and more I had to replace (2 frames, 2 swashes, 1 grip until I went RHK).

My buddy bought a mSRX and it flew GREAT. Much better than mine so I felt like something else was broken on mine. I ended up losing my mSRX and had to buy a new one which also flew great. Today I flew my buddy's which I think was suffering from the TBE. When I let go of the right stick in a hover (6' off the ground) it drifts severely to the right, then forward, then backwards like in a Toilet Bowl. To hover it requires so much left cyclic and the thing leans to the right more than twice of what normal (or my new stock one) does.

He admitted he played with the trims when the problem started but how do you reset the trims on the stock transmitter and is could there be any other problem?

The swash arms look great, new grips, blades are better, flies better once I replaced the tail rotor on his but it still suffers from this significant TBE problem.

[Liduno]

Originally Posted by billj747

Does the stock transmitter reset the trims when you turn the controller off or unplug the battery on the heli?

My mSRX with RHK grips started to get harder to control where I was chasing it around a lot. I could fly it okay and piro alright CCW with minimal back-right drifting but I just felt like I started to suck the more I crashed it and more I had to replace (2 frames, 2 swashes, 1 grip until I went RHK).

My buddy bought a mSRX and it flew GREAT. Much better than mine so I felt like something else was broken on mine. I ended up losing my mSRX and had to buy a new one which also flew great. Today I flew my buddy's which I think was suffering from the TBE. When I let go of the right stick in a hover (6' off the ground) it drifts severely to the right, then forward, then backwards like in a Toilet Bowl. To hover it requires so much left cyclic and the thing leans to the right more than twice of what normal (or my new stock one) does.

He admitted he played with the trims when the problem started but how do you reset the trims on the stock transmitter and is could there be any other problem?

The swash arms look great, new grips, blades are better, flies better once I replaced the tail rotor on his but it still suffers from this significant TBE problem.

The trim settings remain after turning off the TX. You need to adjust them all to center, you will know you are at center when you hear a longer beep.

[hydro_pyro]

Originally Posted by BONEDADDY

I'm learning a lot on this thread, but am still not quite grasping why they would make it so you have to only adjust the servo arms to trim the bird out. Sort of defeats the purpose of buying a nice radio and be able to do the fine tuning on it. I know it's better to get the swash to it's perfect point before flight, but no one can get it set absolutely perfect, you have to use one or two clicks of trim from time to time right?

Adding Tx trim moves the servo away from its center point. This potentially limits the amount of cyclic travel available in a given direction. The heli should always be trimmed as close as possible to perfect with the link heads before adding any Tx trim, which should NOT be more than one or two clicks.

[Diogenes]

I never use any trim on the msr except for rudder (<4 clicks). Any more than that, its time for a new tail motor.

the msrx, not even that.............

[MarvinMartianK9]

I always appreciate good fixes & techniques! You guys are awsome!