Help choosing a FBL Controller

[Angelos]

Originally Posted by weav01

I have the turnigy 3D-H v2(BeastX clone) and love it on a 450 pro. Sold my ikon and put a 3D-H there as well. The only thing I'm missing is the $200 bail out/self level feature. Some day clones aren't as good but for my budget and flying style clones are perfect. 6 to one, half dozen to another. It's a personal and financial decision.

If someone steals your phone or car or helis I won't feed sad at all about it. I'd call his personal and financial decision to enjoy a phone/car/heli he wouldn't be able to afford otherwise.

[skunkworx]

The clones typically use pretty crappy sensing units (toy grade). While they might be ok to use for some, there's no way I'd want to use a knock-off. By the time I put that much time and effort into a machine I'd much rather be happy paying for the real-deal than ever being sorry for getting a cheap one. I admit, I like being able to save money on things here and there but clones are where I draw the line.

[Toocool4]

Originally Posted by skunkworx

The clones typically use pretty crappy sensing units (toy grade).

Cheap parts are the least of it, the fact that they are stealing someone else’s hard work is worse.

[skunkworx]

I'm furthering the reason why they're not worth buying to begin with. If you have an apples to apples reason why a brand name is worth the asking price then why not stand on that instead of simply shaming someone into not using a clone?

There are some that do actually go out and make their own products that end up looking similar to popular brands which is no coincidence. It's part of the game. But straight up hacking something and then building it with crap electronics should be an overwhelming reason not to trust them on its own. Flying lawnmowers deserve a lot of respect and it doesn't matter if it's a 250 or an 800.

[myxiplx]

It comes down to whether the cheap models are copying the idea, and just making a cheap FBL, or copying the entire design, not writing any software, and copying it wholesale.

I know Kbar is a total ripoff, you can't even use them without loading Mikado VBar firmware on them, and you have to download the management software from Mikado. Total ripoff, with zero support.

I don't know enough about the other units out there to know the stories behind them though.

[skunkworx]

I don't understand how they'd work if they had to download them. You'd think they have an authentication method of some sorts.

I know that with stuff like the ZYX controllers they use a really low grade Invensense chipset (like in a game conroller). The BeastX and Ikon use MPU 6XXX series chips but I haven't seen any on the no-name models (not yet anyway). I think as newer stuff comes out the lower-end models will start to get ahold of the higher chipsets and might perform ok, but it still comes down to the algorithms and software to make the mgic happen. In any capacity though, there are definitely methods available to lock the chips and brick the thing if any unauthorized users are detected.

[spykez]

Originally Posted by Toocool4

I use the Spartan VX1n on my T-Rex250 and it fits inside the frame very well.
Using Futaba S-Bus so a ton of cable is not needed just 1 cable between the receiver and the FBL unit.

See pics below....

Jeez.... That's really neat.

I must look at those spartans.

Servo cables look like they're a bit close to the motor, but I assume you've actually got tons of clearance?

[myxiplx]

Tons of room with a Spartan, this is my VX1e with a Spektrum satellite.

[spykez]

Hmmm... you got me convinced. I'll get one.

PS. I don't know about you but I frickin' hate taking this heli apart.

[skunkworx]

How about with a frame mounted tail servo? I have my SE with a Robird mounted in front of the servo and it still has a bit of room between the motor (Scorpion 3900Kv) and the wires. I wish I had a picture to share, but I just got it set up the other day and haven't been able to do much else with it since I'm waiting on a new Talon 25 and custom CF tail rod.

[myxiplx]

Originally Posted by skunkworx

How about with a frame mounted tail servo? I have my SE with a Robird mounted in front of the servo and it still has a bit of room between the motor (Scorpion 3900Kv) and the wires. I wish I had a picture to share, but I just got it set up the other day and haven't been able to do much else with it since I'm waiting on a new Talon 25 and custom CF tail rod.

A vortex with frame servo is what Toocool4 runs, its a lot tighter fit with the wiring, but he's managed to squeeze it in, have a look at his pictures on the first page of this thread.

I much prefer the boom mounted servo myself, it CG'd perfectly for me and gives me loads of room inside the frame. Lets me be lazy with the wiring :-)

[skunkworx]

Ok, so that means the Vortex and Robird are almost exactly the same size because my (Robird) fits in the frame just like Toocool's, only I think I have a smidge more room for the wires (his appear to be touching the bottom of the motor can). I don't know how big the Align motor is compared to the Scorpion but it's possible that that might be the difference between the two. Either way I really like the way the SE tray goes into the frame over the older style frames. The back tray seems really floppy and it's hard to get it to sit in there straight without some means of fastening it down and having to split the frames to get stuff in and out of there.

[CBR240]

I wouldn't run a KBAR, as I understand it is useless unless you steal the Mikado firmware. But lumping all "cheap" FBl units together does not seem correct to me.

We have had ZYX-S (and ZYX-S2) gyros for about 2 years now, without any issues. For my admittedly low level of flying ("sport flying" with occasional flips and loops) they work great. They are an original firmware effort (which was painfully obvious at times in the past). It is disappointing Tarot seems to have turned all their attention to the quads/muti rotors products. So I don't expect any enhancements in the future.

I can't speak to the quality of the actual MEMS gyros used, as IDK, but they work fine for me.

Now you guys have me curious. I may have to look in one of the ZYX-S2 and see whose MEMS sensor they use.

[spykez]

Originally Posted by skunkworx

How about with a frame mounted tail servo? I have my SE with a Robird mounted in front of the servo and it still has a bit of room between the motor (Scorpion 3900Kv) and the wires. I wish I had a picture to share, but I just got it set up the other day and haven't been able to do much else with it since I'm waiting on a new Talon 25 and custom CF tail rod.

I'll figure that out when I get it!

Truth be told, I have been wanting to try a vortex for ages. Worse case scenario I keep the MRS where it is and put the vortex on my 450L, lol. Man, that's one bird that I wish I didn't buy, it's nice like, but it's so noisy.

[oliver1071]

Align Gpro is a great cheap system. setup is almost identical to the vbar and it flys great. $100 or less on ebay and you don't have to rip off Mikado buying a clone.

[skunkworx]

Originally Posted by CBR240

Now you guys have me curious. I may have to look in one of the ZYX-S2 and see whose MEMS sensor they use.

I'll save you the trouble. They use an Invensense IDG-600 chipset which is basically what they use in a Nintendo Wii remote (circa 2008). Is not that they're terrible gyros on their own, it's just not the same as say an MPU-3000 which is a 3 - axis gyro.

The newer systems run MPU-60XX series chips which are accelerometers and gyros (and compass) mixed together for the control solutions. I think these are the BeastX, Ikon, Vortex VX1E, and probably Spirit/Helicommand/Bavarian Demon and Skookum controllers. I have no idea what they're using in the new Mikado but I can imagine they're not Invensense (or at least I hope they're not).

[Angelos]

Originally Posted by skunkworx

I have no idea what they're using in the new Mikado but I can imagine they're not Invensense (or at least I hope they're not).

What if I told you the blueline vbar uses Invensense IDG500+ISZ500 and all the later versions of the mini vbar use some sort of Invensense sensor?

[gimbleguy]

Some say if you like the BeastX, you'll love the Vortex. hmmm so tempted to try.

[Toocool4]

Originally Posted by spykez

Jeez.... That's really neat.

I must look at those spartans.

Servo cables look like they're a bit close to the motor, but I assume you've actually got tons of clearance?

The cables are close to the motor but not touching. Its just the picture that is not showing the true depth of field hence everything looks on top of each other.

Sorry try to write this on my phone while out in Istanbul typing on phones is not good.

[skunkworx]

Originally Posted by Angelos

What if I told you the blueline vbar uses Invensense IDG500+ISZ500 and all the later versions of the mini vbar use some sort of Invensense sensor?

I believe it. I don't have anything against Invensense units but it makes sense to use the all in one packages which might not have been out when they made the mini Vbars. That would explain a lot of their failures though, considering that they were using multiple units.

I do find the decision to use Pinpoint sensors compared to the Invensense MPU-925X interesting. The invensense is capable of up to 2000°/sec and the Pinpoint Maxes out at 900°/sec (peak 1000°/sec). They're both 10,000g shock capable and the temperature tolerances are nearly the same. Seems to reason the one with the lower cost would win out simply because they are very close in performance. But I also don't see a provision for the 3 axis compass that the MPU-925X support. Seems like that would be a really good addition if they came out with a CRM-300, etc...