Want ESC for minimum 8s a123 / 7s Lipo.

[csell]

Hello

Acording to this link Dewalt are balancing when charging a123 packs:

http://www.terrorhurtz.com/a123/charge.aspx

FMA BalancePro has a built in balance circuit, so I se no reasen not to want to balance.

I have to deceide, if I want to accept blind a123 charging or find some sort of cheap insurance / peace in mind by baying a meter or data logger.

What I do not want to do, is to bay a meter now and later i a few months a logger.

I have seen kgflys posting in a other tread, and want to show that acording to this link:

http://www.fmadirect.com/support_docs/item_1237.pdf

8) An existing wattmeter can be used in line to display volts, amps, AH, etc.

I don't know how they connect it, but they write it is possiable.



I have 2 schulze chagers one can charge up to 12 or 13 a123 but at a reduced current. The other can only charge NiXx.

I expect to make 4 pcs 12s a123 packs. so I consider only to charge the a123 during a few months with one schulze. I need more charging capacity.

I can bay a A123 Dapoter, which handles up to 12 a123 for $19.99:

http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...905f863e335bfe

but when adding the cost for shipment I prefer to consider to bay 2 BalancePro.

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

I found this: http://www.fmadirect.com/detail.htm?...054&section=38

Looks to me as if you could cut the primary power leads and install some Deans connectors. Then you could put a power meter inline to monitor your charge Adds about $80-$100 to the cost of the solution but you can also use the power meter for in-flight performance monitoring.

[csell]

Hello.

Kgfly a good idea. I will prefer, not to bay a extra cable, but to cut and connect it in the first cable. The cable connected to the Balancepro.
When you read more of this post I think you se why.


I have for the last days been looking into what cables and connectors to use with the BalancePro and a123 packs.


From FMA I found this information for the BalancePro:

Charges 1 to 6 cells individually

A123 packs to 90% of capacity in as little as 15 minutes

The BP6S can deliver 10 amps into a 6S pack so long as the power supply or 12V battery
can handle the current. Power supply must be capable of > 280 watts for maximum output power
capability.

Charger automatically detects when thin balance wires are used for carrying current. Current is
automatically reduced to 4 amps to prevent melting the balance wires.


I belive it is all advantages giving the possibilities for fast high current chargeing. And this is the reasen
I want to bay the BalancePro. But I also have to choose wires and connectors acordingly


FMA write this for the BalancePro HD packs:

BalancePro HD Packs are manufactured
using 12AWG wire (capable of 60A continuous current) for the main power connections,
and POWERLINE high-strand-count 22AWG (capable of 7A continuous current) for the node
wiring used for cell-balance charging and cell voltage monitoring.


To handle this high current the BalancePro use a special d-sub connector with military specification.
It is expensive. I found links on the internet where to to bay similars, but I am not sure it is a good idea.


In a email from FMA direct they tell me not to use 2 BalancePro chargers on same 13.8 volt power supply without
spiltting the pack up electrical.

AS THIS WILL SHORT HALF THE A123 PACK VIA THE 2 BALANCE PROS GROUND WIRES.


With the above in mind, I like to make my own wirering only baying 3 of this from FMA ( 2 to use and 1 in spare )

http://www.fmadirect.com/Detail.htm?...122&section=38

I am thinking about how to make the wirering, so I do not forget to split the pack up electrical. At the same time
I must choose cables and connectors able to handle the nessasary loads.



When I build my T-Rex 600 with the FligthPower 4900mAh pack I deceided to
use Ø 5,5x9,5mm Gold connectors, but in the version you se in the picture for the Ø 4x12mm ( 4 th. line )

http://www.elektromodellflug.de/hoch...romstecker.htm

I hope you can se the pictures and read the current ratings. Or you can translate it from german to english:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

It is 2 mm wider and 1 mm shorter than the 4mm connectors many are using in Europe. I know I choose it by heart,
but I bay them in Germany for the same price as other connectors ( about 1 Euro each ) and from the same shop where I also
got high quality silicone AWG11 / 4mm2 cable and crimp for my a123 packs.

On both half of a 2 x 5 or 2 x 6 a123 pack I will mount a black male on the negative side and a red female on the positive side
making it impossiable to short one pack by accident. During fligth I connect one red to one black, and the other red and black to the esc.
Wich red to wich balck is not important as long I connect one of the red to one of the black and it is coded one male into one female.

It will only charge if I connect the red and black from one 6s a123 part to the same charger, so I must make some kind of klever
thinking on how it come out of the crimp covering the a123 pack.


I don´t know yet what connectors to use for the balance wirering. It think it must be low weigth, at least 5 pin and be able to handle
5-7-10 Amp? I don't think normal balance connector can handle that current, so any ideas are very welcome.

Regards Carsten

[csell]

Hello.

I promise in a other thread to describe the frame cutting process a little better and post larger fotos, just click on the thumbnails.

I was not sure how to do it and had ask a friend if he will help me doing it.

The CF dust is not healthy, we did it outside and I recomend you to wear a mask.


I was considering to take the frame side off, one at a time, but my friend convinced me to try to do it
without even removing the GY 611 amplifier or the Align regulator.

1. We took one side at a time, and first marked with narrow tape were to cut.

2. My friend has been building plastic model for many years and had a special saw ( you can't se any saw teeth ).
I don't know the correct english word for it, but we used it to cut the verticals cut. For others will it be
possiable to use the Dremal.

3. We first unscrew the 2 back screws holding the motor mount and turned the motor mount 180 degress forward.
Then it was easier to use the Dremal to make the horisontal cut. It was a cheap non brand dremal with original
Dremal 540 Cut-Off Wheel mounted on a original Dremel 402 Mandrel. The original Dremal accessories cost about
9 USD in Denmark.

4. After we did both sides, I took the final picture and now regret that I didn't deceide to cut in the frame earlier.

I now have the option to mount a wide range of motors.

In a early stage of my project I ordered a Z50-800 mainly because I belived it would fit the standard frame without modifications. It dosn't.

If I then knew, what I know today, I should had look more in to the new NEU motors in the mid price range.

Regards Carsten

[csell]

Hello.

My T-rex 600 CF with 12S A123, CC Phoenix 85HV and ZPower Z50-780 had yesterday its first flight.

The autum is comming to Denmark, this weekend was very windy, but yesterday afternoon we succeded in setting the Phoenix 85HV up acording to Finless videos. With the 14T RevCo pinion from ReadyHeli we messured 1610 RPM for 55% trottle and 1800 RPM for 65%.

Both yeasterday and after a flight this morning I messured temperatures in the 30 degree range ( celsius ). Temperatures was messured on the motor, on the CC 85HV and on the batteries itself. In the next days I will continue posting my temperature readings, specially if they go up.


I don´t want to wait any longer to order charger, so I used FMA's Monthly Specials valid until Septemper 24 and ordered a BalancePro HD 6s 10A LiPo Charger also FOR A123 BATTERIES:

http://www.fmadirect.com/new_applica...y_special.html

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Hi Carsten, Glad to hear it has all finally come together, looking forward to further updates as you tweak the setup and let us know how you like it. Coincidentally, I won my first DeWalt pack on eBay today so I have begun my own journey down the A123 path

[Mercuriell]

Sounds like your HS going to be in the right ball park - look forward to hearing your experience of duration and power - of course you're aware that A123 drop off their pack voltage very quickly so I think it's best to fly by timer rather than lipo alam - I burned out my CC85 last week by setting current limiting to insensitive and the Neu motor locking up - be warned !

[csell]

Hello.

Charged my first 12s a123 pack more than 90% in 12 minutes using 2 BalancePro chargers.

To monitor the charging on my notebook I use the FMA USB Interface Module
FUIM1 wich is based on the Prolific PL-2303 chip. I deceided to upgrade the driver to the newest wd_pl2303h-hx-x_v20019v2021.zip from:

http://www.prolific.com.tw/eng/downloads.asp?ID=31

I have been searching for a user guide or short description for the FMA Viewer Software. Do any know if it exist?

Regards Carsten

[csell]

Hello.

My friends timed me hovering today. It was 7 minutes and 15 seconds.

I started with 100% charged batteries and run it down to the ESC cut off at 33 volt.

I will describe my kind of hovering as low hover with a lot of jumping as I still have my traning landing gear on.

It was the 6 th. fligth of my T-Rex 600 and remember it is my first heli. I am very very happy that I choosed the T-rex 600 to learn to fly on. It is very stable, even in medium winds and all the tempratures is still in the 30'ties ( celcius ). And today is was 7 min and 15 sec.

Regards Carsten

[I8urls6]

Hello Carsten,
I am curious as to what motor you decided to run, what pinion you are using, and what rpm that is at. I am running 10s a123's currently for 6 minute timed flights at 1850 rpm. But am considering going to 12s this winter.

Thanks

Jon

[Mercuriell]

With a 15 minute charge looks like you're going to get lots of practice in - sounds like a nice setup, Carsten, after a considerable amount of thought - well done

I'm not sure you need an ESC cut out on these bearing in mind the durability of A123 - you'll soon have a good idea of duration and be able to run on the timer. It can be darned inconvenient running out of power sometimes and an extra 10 secs can make all the difference - are you going to get an FDR and show us some graphs :~)

I was getting 6 mins of low intensity flight on my 8S A123 pack on a stock 600L but I'm sure when you're ready to crank it up you'll have more power available.

[Bill Sanford]

Will the Align 75Amp ESC arm and work with a 7s A123 pack?

How about a CC Phoenix 80??

I have both and will have two 7S 4500mAh "a123" type packs to test in the next few days... These are not A123 Racing cells, but Chinese made 4500 mAh cells.

I hope they perform as promised...

Bill

[Mercuriell]

Haven't tried it but in theory yes as a 7S A123 (3.3*7=23.1V) is in the same voltage ballpark as a 6S lipo (3.7*6=22.2V) and fully charged thay are the same (3.6*7 as compared to 4.2*6)

[csell]

Hello.

The motor is the ZPower Z50-800 780kv, I had to cut in my CF frame
to make space for it, but is was so easy done, se my previus post #124.
Previus I had stated that If I knew what I know today I would also had
considered some of the mid priced NEU motors as it only cost a little
more and had a better reputation.

The pinion is 14T RevCo pinion from ReadyHeli. When I ordered, I also
ordered a 13T and a 15T, but choosed to start with the 14T and can se no
reasen to adjust by changing. I got help to set the CC 85HV up to Govenor high
mode after Finless video. We messured 1610 RPM for 55% trottle and 1800
RPM for 65%. My normal mode throthe curve is 0%, 27.5%, 55%, 55%, 55%.

Yes John, with a 15 minute charge looks like I am going to get lots of
practice. Already now I can se, that as a beginner, that is actually more
important for me than 1 or 2 minutes longer fligth times. But for all you,
I will continue to post fligth time as my flying skills improve. The 33 volt
ESC soft cutoff is due to I didn't change the ESC setting yet, I think the 33
volt is the default cutoff for 10S lipo.

Kgfly advised my some time ago to consider a Watt's up meter. I am for the moment
investingating how important it will be, that a watt meter can meassure both possitive
and negative values. The Watt's up meter dosn't. But I can se a logger will be nice, wich
one to consider?

Bill, you ask if the Align 75Amp ESC will arm and work with a 7s A123 pack? and How about a CC Phoenix 80. I think both will arm, you can just try it, by connecting it to a variable power suply. But I think that only live tests can show how well it will work with your new 7s ABF-a123 packs and may be more important how well your 600L will run together with this new 7s ABF-a123 4500mAh pack.

But I can't understand people consider 6-7 cells setups when 10-15 cells setups have the advatages descriped in my other thread:

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=42466

I have been looking at ABF-a123 prices and specifications, Generaly I think they with its low C rating not are candidates to be used in T-rex 600's. But with all its different sizes will many other RC-pilots now have the options to consider it as an alternative to lipos. You can compare its price to normal retail a123's, but I think nearly all following this thread bay Dewalt packs on ebay.com and I can't se it can beat the prises there.

Some time ago I read that a123 cells have an internal resistance around 14 mili ohm, and that is the problem that prevent the hard 3d pilots from using a123. In the specification for the new ABF-a123 is clamed a internal resistance around 8 mili ohm. If this is true, can be the deceiding factor for the future of ABF-a123.

I am very very happy that I choosed to bay a123 cells and make my a123 packs insted of baying 1 or 2 more 6S high quality lipo packs. With the a123 technology today, I am sure I can use it during my hover training trugh sports flying and may be in a couple of years also for mild 3D. When my flying skill reach the limit of the a123 I can just bay 2 pcs 4s or 5s high quality lipos and will then with a low investment have a real high power T-rex 600. I belive my way, is the way to go.

Regards Carsten

[Bill Sanford]

Originally Posted by csell

Kgfly advised my some time ago to consider a Watt's up meter. I am for the moment
investingating how important it will be, that a watt meter can meassure both possitive
and negative values. The Watt's up meter dosn't. But I can se a logger will be nice, wich one to consider?

Bill, you ask if the Align 75Amp ESC will arm and work with a 7s A123 pack? and How about a CC Phoenix 80. I think both will arm, you can just try it, by connecting it to a variable power suply. But I think that only live tests can show how well it will work with your new 7s ABF-a123 packs and may be more important how well your 600L will run together with this new 7s ABF-a123 4500mAh pack.

But I can't understand people consider 6-7 cells setups when 10-15 cells setups have the advatages descriped in my other thread:

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=42466

I have been looking at ABF-a123 prices and specifications, Generaly I think they with its low C rating not are candidates to be used in T-rex 600's. But with all its different sizes will many other RC-pilots now have the options to consider it as an alternative to lipos. You can compare its price to normal retail a123's, but I think nearly all following this thread bay Dewalt packs on ebay.com and I can't se it can beat the prises there.

Some time ago I read that a123 cells have an internal resistance around 14 mili ohm, and that is the problem that prevent the hard 3d pilots from using a123. In the specification for the new ABF-a123 is clamed a internal resistance around 8 mili ohm. If this is true, can be the deceiding factor for the future of ABF-a123.

Hi Carsten,

First, concerning data loggers, I just bought an Eagle Tree MicroPower E Logger and love it! It works great and it's really helpful seeing exactly what's going on during the flights.

Concerning why 7s A123 instead of 10-12s A123... If the ABF 4500mAh "A123" type cells indeed do have lower internal resistance and can give more current than A123 Racing cells, then they may be a good option. I agree that a high voltage setup is likely the best, but it does require you to replace the motor and ESC with something usable with the higher voltage. This is typically a $500 investment. If the 7S ABF 4500mAh perform reasonably close to a good 6S lipo and are more durable, safer, and can be charged in 15 minutes or less, I think this would be a very attractive option for many people because it can be used with the stock Align motor and ESC.

You mention the low C rating of the ABF cells. The 4500mAh cells are rated for 80 amps continuous and 100amp 5 second bursts. If this is a real rating, I think this will be enough. We can speculate all day, but only testing them will tell and I thought that I'd take the chance and I should have two 7s packs in my hands this week... I hope I don't end up with two paper weights!

Thanks for your thoughts.

Regards,

Bill

[kgfly]

I think Bill's reasoning about a cheaper, safer 7s LiFe alternative to 6s lipo that still works with the stock frame, motor and ESC makes perfect sense. It was not an option with A123 cells. Many of us are eagerly awaiting his test results to find out if it could makes sense with these new cells.

[csell]

Hello.

Time will show, I have allready found out that there is not only one rigth solution, but one solution will be rigth for some and an another solution will be rigth for others, as we all are in different stages and have different possibilities. And as Bill writes, only testing them will tell.

Kgfly I started yeasterday considering writing this post and finished it this morning having in mind that I want to show an approch to get started with the wonderfull T-Rex 600 without having to worry about the high battery prices and come away from Aligns 6S setup wich calculations show are inefficient compared to 8S setups.


I was in the situation considering to bay 1 or 2 high quality 6S lipo, that is 300 US$ or 600 US$.

I read, that when people bay their first or may be second high quality 6S lipo, many are reducdant to change to a higher voltage setup. And I understand why, the 300 US$ they allready invested in each.

But when people realize a 8S lipo and even a 10S high power lipo setup is more efficient, most had allready "invested" in several 6S lipos and then it can be rather expensive to change.

But lipos are something with a limited time of life. What is the alternative:


Instead I deceided to start this project. So far I am very happy with it.

Already when assembly the T-Rex 600 make space for other motors. Eather bay a T-Rex 600 ALU + rotorworkz G-10 frame or cut in the CF frame as I did, se post #124. To cut in the CF frame costed me 9 USD for a original Dremal 540 Cut-Off Wheel mounted on a original Dremel 402 Mandrel.

Bay a Castle Creations Phoenix 85HV, I used this offer wich include the USB link and with free worldwide shipping to $178.95 ,took 5 days:

http://b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod...434ea0f62d0d4b

I got a ZPower Z50A-800 motor, the last in stock for a reduced price. But others can bay at:

http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=10 to $124.95 but for the moment Out of Stock.

or

http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...oducts_id=1903 to $119.99

Or an alternative http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...oducts_id=1355 to $97.78

I think the NEU mid priced motors also is a option to consider.

How much did it cost so far. when I add the prices together I end up with prices in the range from 286 to 308 US$


When designing we have to make compromices. When using lipos the posiblities are very limited, 6S and may be 8S.

with a123 cells from DeWalt packs we must choose between 10s, 12s, 13s, 14s and even 15s. But we have the advatages we can start with 12s and increase the cellcount as our flying skills improve. Where to start, I deceided on 12s.

How much do they cost. I received quantety discount and ended up with free shipping, when I got mine on ebay.com

I payed 450 US$ for 5 DeWalt packs, that is 9 US$ each cell giving 108 US$ pr 12s a123 pack.

If you don´t want to build 3-4 a123 packs from start, you may be can bay some DeWalt packs together with friends or other members in your RC-Club.


So I succeded to get a high quality Castle Creation Phoenix 85HV ESC, A new more powerfull and cooler ZPower Z50A-800 motor together with 2 pcs 12s a123 battery packs, wich I charge in 15 min. for 500 US$.


Expensive? No. An alternative was to bay 2 pcs 6S lipo now for 600 US$, and continue to bay 300 US$ lipos once in a while.

Now I can bay more 108 US$ 12s a123 packs or increase to a higher cellcount if I need. and that for 9 dollar pr cell.


I se the 300 US$ part of it, for the new motor and ESC as an investment, not an expence.

With this investment I can change to a dual 4s or 5s high quality lipo setup if and when my flying skill reach the limit of todays a123 technology. I use the word change, as my new ESC and motor setup actually is the same high voltage setup used by several dual 4s pilots. I will just have to bay the 2 pcs 4s lipos.

2 pcs FLIGHTPOWER 4S EVO25-3700mAh ( total 8S ) only cost a little more than one FlightPower 6S EVO 25 4900mAh, and more important by making it this way, my way, I only begin to use the high priced high quality lipos when my flying skill demand it.

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Carsten I think your logic is very sound and given what is available *today* I know I would follow your path if I was setting up a T600. I have 30 A123 cells (3 DeWalt packs) on the way to power my Logo10, two boats, maybe my T450 and almost certainly my next heli (TBD).

[Mercuriell]

I agree Carsten's approach is extremely well thought out and thoroughly researched - my own experience with 8S123 suggests that 7SA123 will be marginal power wise but should be OK for puttering around and hover - I think the 600L/XL motor would be OK on A1237S - I ran mine for about 20 flights on 8SA123 and while it did smoke eventually I think this was related to TT binding. I certainly agree an HV ESC is a really useful early investment if you're going to play with power packs - remember the CCHV85 is less $$ than a single good quality lipo.

Anyway Bill - looking forward to seeing your FDR of your new packs - the data logger is fun!

[csell]

Hello.

Allready after a few fligths, I deceided to continue with the 12 cell pack size and do the next one.

Actually is it 2 separate 6 cell packs glued together. He is some pictures of how I did it:

First I disasembled the DeWalt packs and separated it in 6 cells and 4 cells modules.
Both times I used two 6 cells modules to make one 12s a123 pack.

To better hold it together I glued between the 6 cells and used the original holder to keep it together while its dry. You can se it it in the first picture.

I am not sure normal balance plugs can handle balance current in excess of 1 amp and don't know if I in the future will need even higher balance current. Therefore I have deceided to use MPX plugs. I also deceided to have the same length on all the balance wires to avoid meassure errors, when the chargers balancing circuit meassure the individual cell voltages. While the glue was drying I soldered the wire on the plugs. For the positive and negative I use 4 mm2 ( 11 AWG ) heavy duty silicone wire and 5.5 mm gold plugs.

When I finished the 2 separate 6 cells pack I just glued them together. Se the center picture.

Before crimping it in my transparent crimp I covered the open metal electrodes with Kontronik GOLDFix Kaptonband.

In the pictures you can se it actually is two separate 6 cells pack. I also charge them separate. When I fly I just connect one black male plug with one red female. Wich I connect is not important as long it is one of the black to one of the red. The other connecters do I then connect to the ESC.

4 thing I learned:

Make some scratches in the a123 cells covers before gluing, the glue will then hold better.

I used a 80 watt solder iron when soldering on the a123 cells and on the 5.5 mm gold plugs and
a 40 watt to the rest of it.

I had two roll of solder with a diameter of 1.5 mm. But could only use one of them to solder on the a123 cells. I do not know why, but if you have difficulties to solder on the a123 cells will I suggest that you try to change the solder.

I followed an advice to practice to solder on some plain old batteries before soldering on the new a123 cells.

Regards Carsten