180 compared to the 250, thoughts and observations (long read)

[skunkworx]

I got out and flew both machines this weekend and it got me thinking. I can't be the only one with both so I wanted to ask opinions and explain a couple of mine if anyone was curious.

First, I have to say I really do enjoy both machines. But I suppose I also really hate both of them. Kind of an odd paradox, but it's just the honest truth. I could go on about the pros and cons of both, but I'm not here to pick sides (or at least not intentionally). At the end of the day I'm glad that I do have both because if one goes in I have the other. If they both go in, well schucks. Guess the heli gods got their way.

If I want to be the most optimistic I'd have to say I like how the 250 simply does what it's told; just like my bigger machines all the way up to my 700. It's zippy and powerful, but dare I say it's also precise as a scalpel? Shock, I know! Almost anyone I've heard mention a 250 do so with an uncomfortable groan like an explicit joke told in front of a church pastor.

I've dared to prove the world wrong about the 250 and I think I'm right on the edge of doing so if only I can hold on to this little adrenaline fueled rocket for more than a few flights at a time! As many problems as you hear about the tail I have almost none of that. In fact, I have exactly the opposite. The tail holds so well that even with the tail housing snapped completely in two and only being held on by the belt, I could still throw down just as hard as ever and it barely skipped a beat!

I run crappy, $5 Ebay servos, it's probably the heaviest 250 on the planet, it has an amalgam of Copterx, Align, Extreme, and who knows what else parts on it, but it still flies like nobody's business! Maybe I'm just amped up in it right now because it took a lot of work to get it that way, but it has also taught me a massive amount of setup stuff along the way. I'm proud to say I own one, let alone 7 of the little suckers. I feel like they're rc helis greatest kept secret and I wish more people knew about them.

On the other hand, there's the 180. Simple, light, effective, fun to fly, fairly simple to fix. Everyone's dream machine it seems. It had some big shoes to fill following the mCPX (which basically taught me everything I know about orientation flying and collective management) and the 130X (which I actually grew to despise!). I think the 180 basically nailed everything that the mCPX and 130X promised, but couldn't deliver on. You can wipe out with it and typically get it for back in the in minutes, if not seconds. It handles a decent amount of wind, it'll do tic-tocs, big loops, hurricanes, piro flips, piro tic-tocs, you name it! It seems to do it all It's small enough to fly just about anywhere and packs are nearly a dime a dozen it seems.

I think the only real big drawbacks or limitations to each is intertwined with their greatest strengths (the 250 is difficult to set up but it's worth the hard work; the 180 gyro isn't the best but it does so well otherwise you kind of just forget about the quirks). Many people will form an opinion really quick of either one without giving it a fair shake and that's a bit unfortunate. I think they're both brilliant in their own sense and realm. I can't honestly say I could get rid of either one without missing it somehow. Like I said, I kind of hate them too, but it's more like hating one of your siblings. It's not real hatred, probably just frustrations bubbling up to the surface. Same thing with these two. They're both dynamite in little packages and I just wanted to share the love.

[Pilotrob]

Good read Skunkworkz, you have seven you must really like them. I still enjoy flying my MCPX around the back yard from time to time. I just don't do it as much as I use to ( keep ordering batteries for my other heli's instead ) I have had my 130x's going on two and a half years now and I have slowly added upgrades that they needed to make them buttery smooth. I still enjoy zipping them around the park, they are so quiet, floaty and smooth but I still have the linier servos on them and I have to clean the tail servo from time to time. I then built a 450se clone( first heli build), its very intimidating. So big that I fly very conservitive with it but it is locked in, it does exactly what I tell it to. I added a full scale fuselage to it and it looks awesome in the air.I got my 180 back when they first came out in November. This thing is a rocket! It is my fastest heli, it keeps me on my toes when I fly it. It has a small tail wag in the wind but I fly it like that anyway ( need to buy cables and update), I'm just a sport flier so it doesn't bother me much. Just got the HK 250gt ( flybarred) a couple of weeks ago because I didn't like a Blade 400 3D I had got in a trade off of craigslist and wanted to swap out as many parts as I could to keep part cost down and I've always wanted a 250. I ended up putting the same gyro on it as my 450 because the tail is so locked in, it is too now. I really like the way it flies so far but I only have a handfull of flights on it and I am still mechanicly fine tuning the servos. It has a very floaty feel to it and I like that plus it also has a lower head speed than the 180 and I like that too. I think I am going to try and find a good deal on an Align kit and swap everything over sooner or later. Now I just need to order more batteries. I like all of them they are each different and I will be flying them for a long time to come.

[Toocool4]

I have to admit I don’t have the 180cfx but have the 250 DFC Pro, I really don’t have all the problems people say they had on the 250. As soon as I changed out the 3GX for a Spartan all the problems went away.

A friend has the 180 and he loves it, I have never flown it. I have the 130x and I cannot remember the last time I flew it, no end of problems. The 130x is the first Blade product I ever bought and it will be the last.

The T-Rex250 DFC is just amazing, love it.

[skunkworx]

Well, it was more by chance than diet choice that I got that many. I traded a nano for the original 2.5 airframes from a guy who never got the one flying. To his credit, the 250 just seemed to be outside his experience to set it up, but it was very well equipped. After that, I had a friend sell me a box of them with a ton of parts and batteries, so that's why I have so many. But I've been building them all up little by little and eventually I'll have my pick of the litter to fly with and maybe keep the others as backups or spares. The best thing is I get FB, both types of FBL heads, different electronics across the board, and lots of different options to keep the squadron up and running

Like I said before, the SE or Pro kit with a belted tail, double bearing mod, get a good tail servo and gyro and some 850 or smaller batteries and it really makes a great machine. I also use the Lynx dampers, so if you don't have them yet don't waste another flight without them!

The 250 doesn't bobble and wobble like the 180 does and it has the same devil-may-care attitude with the wind as a 450, but it also crashes a little harder than the 180. Until I put on some KBDD tail blades, the 180 had the 250 beat on the tail hold, but now I'd say it's rivaling my 500. I just wish I could frame-mount the tail servo to shift some weight forward. I have a couple 1000mA packs which really make it fly like garbage and makes it nose heavy, but it gives it a different feel overall (tracks better at higher speeds). I have some 800mA packs I haven't had a chance to try yet, but I intend to solder some up soon and give them a try. I also haven't had a chance to try the Scorpion yet. The Hobbymate 3900 has been trearing it up so far and until I can get the SE finished I won't get to compare them (I direct-solder the ESC to the motor).

[Pilotrob]

Thanks for the tip on the Lynx dampers, I`ll order me some this weekend. I agree with you on the 180 with its wobble and bobble. I put some Zeal blades on it and that helped.The 250 doesn't do that its very smooth just like my 450 and can handle the wind better too. I think I am going to put some CF blades on it too. I`m running plastic ones right now.
@ Toocool14, the 130x is one finicky machine for sure. The gear train has to be smooth and the servos have to be cleaned often.

[Toocool4]

Originally Posted by Pilotrob

@ Toocool14, the 130x is one finicky machine for sure. The gear train has to be smooth and the servos have to be cleaned often.

I have been told about the servo cleaning on the 130x, I have not done it yet. Can you give me tips on how to clean it? Thanks.

[myxiplx]

Originally Posted by Toocool4

I have been told about the servo cleaning on the 130x, I have not done it yet. Can you give me tips on how to clean it? Thanks.

Sent you a pm :-)

[Toocool4]

Thanks myxiplx

[ToddMcF2002]

Originally Posted by skunkworx

....The 250 doesn't bobble and wobble like the 180 does ...

I don't know why on earth we find that to be acceptable flying behavior. I have (2) 180's. One flies pretty well but still exhibits this tendency in any kind of wind. My backup 180 is virtually unflyable due to stability problems in the disk, tail wag and this moronic wobble/bobble you describe.

And only a 250 owner could possibly call the 180 "light" considering its 42% disc loading penalty vs. the 130x.

I'm really not a fan and I'm back flying my 130's and 300's primarily. Properly loaded disks and smooth as a baby's butt.

[skunkworx]

I'm not sure what people do to get their 130X to fly as nice as some people suggest but that was pretty close to my all-time worst machine I've ever owned. It was ok at first but started to get really bad after a few crashes. By the time I got rid of it it had a tail wag so bad I was ready to light it on fire just so that I wouldn't spend another day tinkering with it.

Granted, the 180 is no walk in the park either and it has its quirks, but it's a lot easier to work on and the tail gears and setup are what the 130X should've had all along. I didn't mind the linear servos and the gyro was at least somewhat tunable but I would've been a lot happier if it had more of a BeastX rate-mode feel to it than the heading-hold feel of the Blade gyros. They're just too jumpy for their own good.

[ToddMcF2002]

DS76T and an all Lynx tail does the trick. Quad bearing boom & TBSR. Quantum motor is glass smooth and powerful. Metal ABCD. Main shaft bearings. You have to spend some money on it but in the end they are great for everything except tic tocs. At least I can't get them right on the 130. If the 180 had decent disc loading the 130 wouldn't be worth the effort. But that is unfortunately not the case.

[Toocool4]

I bought a lot of bits to improve my 130x and the only one that actually did any good was the metal swash plate, anything else is a waste of money.

Getting the upgrade parts are not cheap, in fact all the Microheli upgrade cost more than the heli cost in the first place.

[ToddMcF2002]

Microheli? That explains many things... But anyway, clearly the 130 is in the past for many. My point was around its superior disc loading only.

[Pilotrob]

Originally Posted by Toocool4

I bought a lot of bits to improve my 130x and the only one that actually did any good was the metal swash plate, anything else is a waste of money.

Getting the upgrade parts are not cheap, in fact all the Microheli upgrade cost more than the heli cost in the first place.

With the 130x to make it smooth is put a Lynx TBSR boom, and either a Xtreme or Lynx quad tail case on it. I went with the Xtreme tail case but either one is good. I never changed out the tail servo like Toddmcf2002 did, maybe I should, but I just clean my tail servo whenever the tail starts wagging. I have been flying mine like that for two and a half years with those upgrade parts and it is very smooth.
As far as the 250, I like it so much I want to build another

[tigger69]

180 definately flys lighter than the 250, but im with skunkworks, i love them both and the work on the 250 has always been time well spent. The float that some folks are chasing is nice but i like the heavier feel, maybe a carryover from my days flying planks, where a little heavy helps with penetration, stability, groove, and feel. But to me same holds true with helis, alittle heavy and they sit better, follow through better. But thats just me.

[ToddMcF2002]

But if the objective is not just to enjoy the micros but have the experience/practice transferable to larger helis then the light disc loading is pretty important. My 450's and 300's have definite float and punchy collectives that are nothing like a high disk load 250 or 180. It only gets worse comparing them to 500 and up. My 130's with lower disc loading and aftermarket motors teach better muscle memory than my 180's or 250's. Right now it takes me 2-3 packs before I can start ripping my 450's like a micro. I want to get to the point where that is 1 pack.

I have high hopes for the 180 stretch kit!

[Toocool4]

Originally Posted by Pilotrob

With the 130x to make it smooth is put a Lynx TBSR boom, and either a Xtreme or Lynx quad tail case on it. I went with the Xtreme tail case but either one is good. I never changed out the tail servo like Toddmcf2002 did, maybe I should, but I just clean my tail servo whenever the tail starts wagging. I have been flying mine like that for two and a half years with those upgrade parts and it is very smooth.
As far as the 250, I like it so much I want to build another

I will not be spending any more money on that pile of junk 130x.

[Pilotrob]

Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002

My 450's and 300's have definite float and punchy collectives that are nothing like a high disk load 250 or 180.

I agree with you on the high disk loading of the 180 but my 250 has a floaty feel to it, maybe that is because it is flybarred. I haven't flown a FBL 250.
@ At Toocool, LOL, OK then!

[skunkworx]

I could never get good tic-tocs or loops out of the 130X. The 180 does them flawlessly even if it takes a bit more effort on the sticks to keep it still. I don't really feel that the disc loading is that bad, but maybe I prefer a heavier machine? No amount of add-ons helped the 130 except maybe a metal swash. It was the best in pure stock form and I just dealt with the weak motor, but the 180 seems to have a considerable amount of torque considering it will do sustained tic-tocs except under some really horrid pitch management whcih the 130 could barely do with an aftermarket motor and a lot more headspeed.

I know I can fly my 250 with a 1000mA pack and other than extreme tic-tocs it flies just fine. It definitely does better with 850s, but that could be a Pulse compared to Turnigy thing as well. I don't have a scale handy so I can't compare them directly.

I really wish they had different shaped blades available. I flew swept-wing designs on my 450 and they really sucked (MAH blades). You lose a ton of lift by reducing the tip chord width and the 250 has to rely on headpseed to get the same effect as a larger machine. I can get some pretty hard stops out of mine now that I switched to the bigger KBDD tail blades and added a couple more degrees of pitch. I still think it should be able to do more with less pitch with an improved blade profile. At least it would keep it from stalling as much. You won't notice the effect as much with slower servos because they simply won't hit the corners, but when they're moving quick or using precomps or pitch boost, etc... they hit the corners quicker and it drags the headspeed down.

I tell you what though, the Hobbymate 3900Kv motor really rips if you're looking for a good but cheap motor. I think it's a little too much headspeed for my liking, even with a 15t pinion. I was kind of thinking about going down in size, but the motor is still cranking hard and I won't save as much energy as switching to a lower Kv motor and keeping the gearing the same or going up a tooth. I just don't want to strip gears worse than I do right now. I also have a couple 3600Kv and 3400Kv motors to choose from, but as I get all of my 250s online I can try the different ones and see how they do. Gotta buy 5 more Talon 25s.

[Toocool4]

Originally Posted by skunkworx

I really wish they had different shaped blades available. :

Give the Zeal 210mm blades a try.