AR7200BX and CC Ice Lite can't calibrate.

[shadco]

Originally Posted by Waff

I have the ICE 50, not the lite. It calibrated with no issues on my ar7200bx with no separate bec or battery.

Interesting, I had to use a separate battery pack to calibrate mine.

[scott s]

Originally Posted by Waff

I have the ICE 50, not the lite. It calibrated with no issues on my ar7200bx with no separate bec or battery.

Were your esc's fixed endpoints in the tx already calibrated from a previous set up ? And all you did was add the ar7200bx ? The way the smart safe throttle signal works in the ar7200bx this would have been impossible from a totaly new scratch set up. OR you somehow got an ar7200bx that is outputting a throttle signal without seeing absolute 0 (zero) which would be very interesting to say the least!

[Waff]

This ICE 50 was used with my AR7000 before. However, it was never calibrated before simply because I was unaware that there was a calibration process until I saw this thread. I do not recall ever reading about calibrating the esc in the CC manual.

Anyway, I read this thread and thought I should calibrate my esc. Here are the steps I took, in the order I did them:
- transmitter (DX7) throttle endpoints set to H 100%, L 100%
- throttle curve set linear from 0 to 100
- set stick to low throttle
- bound the receiver to the transmitter
- unplugged battery
- transmitter throttle endpoints set to H 50%, L50%
- set stick to high throttle
- plug in battery
- start to increase H setting on throttle travel adjust until esc beeps (beeped at 96%)
- increased H to 98%
- start to increase L setting on throttle travel adjust until esc beeps (beeped at 85%)
- increased L to 87%

Tried it again and got the same results.

Now this part is interesting...
Tried it again before typing this reply, and my AR7200BX will not output a throttle signal to the ICE until I first move stick to 0, which is what you would expect with Fail Safe. Not sure why I had success when I first set it up. Interesting... I cannot explain why it worked when I first set this up the other night, but it absolutely did.

That being said, I don't see that this is a bug in any way for Spektrum. They have a feature to protect you when you plug in your battery in case you forgot to hit throttle hold. I like that. CC chose to require a high throttle to enter calibration. I don't have a problem with that either. It simply means the two are not compatible if you need to calibrate your esc, so you must use a secondary means to power up your receiver. Why is this a big deal?

Saying that Spektrum needs to change is silly in my opinion. Their feature is for safety. If anything, CC can put a button on their unit to enter calibration mode when needed.

Also, I have used the ICE 50 on my AR7000 for a couple of years now. I simply did the bind thing and flew. Never did a calibration and never had an issue. I used, and still use, governor mode on my ICE with throttle setpoints of 30%, 70%, & 100%. So I wonder, why is it even necessary to calibrate the ICE?

Waff

[scott s]

Yes it is necessary to calibrate, Especialy if you enable the auto rotate feature in the cc esc's as it opens up a large window at low throttle and you will end up with low endpoints around 120 or so depending on radio. You must of got lucky or there is an intermittent problem with your ar7200bx. Also you are mistaken about castle putting a button on the esc to allow calibrating. All esc manufactures except maybe kontronics and yge are all designed to be programmed in such a way and as for safety on power up as you put it there is not an issue as the esc needs to see 0 to arm anyways. This new wonder feature is aimed at if there is a brown out in flight that the motor will not powerup until everything reboots. Problem here is just a short term loss of signal will engage fail safe so motor will kill but as soon as signal is regained you have now lost any ability to recover unless you can come out of idle one to normal and hit 0 throttle either on the stick or a kill switch if using autorotate function, to allow the ar7200bx to start outputting throttle where as before the motor would spool up again as soon as signal is regained. If no signal is regained or it was a brown out (short loss of enough power to operate the ar7200bx) and nothing reboots the motor aint gonna start anyways. If in the case of a short signal loss and motor does start to spool up and you are still gonna go in spektrum has taken it on themselves to determine we are to stupid to hit throttle hold and pretty much taken away any chance of saving a expensive heli from taking an impact with mother earth. All at the same time making calibration a slight pain in the but. Of course all this being released without proper instructions open up the possibility for someone to hurt themself trying to figure out why they can't calibrate. And why no instuctions?, more than likely due to lack of testing from a scratch set up after this late software addition and spektrum was not even aware there was a problem, I guarantee you that! Now I guess all the esc manufacturers will have to change there instructions for calibration just for the ar7200bx and if someone is stick proggraming the features in an esc this is even worse. I am gonna say it again. There is absolutely no need for this feature and as I stated above if is such a great feature and a must have then spektrum need to recall every other rx they make.
As you stated maybe cc should ad a button, well how about align and hobbywing and, and, and, this is not the esc manufacturers problem it is spektrum and horizon hobbies problem!

[dribbe]

Originally Posted by scott s

Problem here is just a short term loss of signal will engage fail safe so motor will kill but as soon as signal is regained you have now lost any ability to recover unless you can come out of idle one to normal and hit 0 throttle either on the stick or a kill switch if using autorotate function, to allow the ar7200bx to start outputting throttle where as before the motor would spool up again as soon as signal is regained.

Are you positive this is the case (did you test it)? If my memory is correct, it ONLY is in effect after a REAL power loss/reboot (and cyclic WILL be lost in this case).
Let me know if you have confimed this, of if this is just making it sound worse as an issue than it is?
(Not that it is that big a deal if it was the case after a failsafe... I never have failsafes on DSM, so if you are getting them, a safety feature is not that bad an Idea... energy coming out of the system)

(my reccollection was really more of a boot safe (only) than failsafe feature....)
If I recall, failsafe is 44 consecutive frames or about a second... kind of an eternity in the 3D heli world... this is the short term loss of signal you refer to that will evoke failsafe.
I guess I may have to test your theory after E-fest from my own personal curiousity (not my work area).

Have Fun, FLY IT!
Best Regards,
David

[scott s]

Well just tested again(many times) with an ar7000 (DSM2) with beastx, cc100 in set rpm mode and auto rotate enabled and fail safe set as same figure as hold with auto rotate where the motor will shut off but the esc will not see 0 causing soft start to engage. I power up then spool up and make sure it is out of soft start and simply turn the tx off and back on again and in less than a second or 2(not that long) at most I have full control and heli motor is running back up without going into soft start. Granted in the 3d world if you are low to the ground It probably would not matter and the heli would go in but with power to the motor off and I would hit hold. If I am flying big air I have plenty of time to recover more than likely.
Now with the ar7200bx same test and set rpm mode etc.(different heli obviously) and Same regain of control in a split second but no motor. I have to switch out of idle 1 into normal which is all 0 throttle for arming then back to idle 1 but it goes into soft start. I would be pretty much doomed at this point so i would hit hold anyways and auto it in if possible. No I do not get these signal losses in flight or have not yet but if I do and flying big sky I want a chance at saving my heli. A brown out is a different case totaly as the ar7200bx now has to reboot and probably wont in the air and hold surely would be initiated so the motor will not to life. In the 3d world flying low or on the deck if this is the case, again the heli is doomed instantly anyway's . But brownouts are totaly unavoidable on the builders part and Some kind of signal interference just long enough to invoke the above is not.

[labmaster]

Originally Posted by scott s

....
Now with the ar7200bx same test and set rpm mode etc.(different heli obviously) and Same regain of control in a split second but no motor. I have to switch out of idle 1 into normal which is all 0 throttle for arming then back to idle 1 but it goes into soft start.

Can't follow you.
AR7200BX works same as AR7000 as long as no brownout occurs.
"Smart safe" is only active once after powerup and maybe active after brownout (depends if it was a hard reset or a gracefull one) Failsafe condition (TX off ....) does not reanable "Smart safe".

best regards,
Walter

[scott s]

Thanks for the reply walter. I guess the great software lord in the sky should tell my ar7200bx that it is not supposed to behave this way but the bottom line is it is. Pretty interesting after reading waff's post above that he was able to calibrate without the 7200 seeing 0 throttle and then after a few rebinds he was not. I will play some more with it and do some rebinds at my auto rotate enabled hold figure and see what happens.
Ps what is the difference in a hard brown out or gracefull brownout?? If a gracefull brownout does not activate the no throttle output until the ar7200bx sees 0 throttle then I guess I have to iterate again why is this new feature on this system.

I will post after I play with this a bit more, but I assure you that with a short signal loss That my ar7200bx is going into a no throttle output mode with instant regain of cyclic etc when signal returns, but no motor unless I make the tx output a 0 signal. This is why I have been questioning this feature in the first place besides the fact that it makes esc calibration a bit of a pain among the loss of data clearing ability from the tx etc.

[Waff]

Scott, are you saying we are too stupid to figure all this out? Or is it only Spektrum that says we are too stupid? Guess I'm too stupid to follow...

Anyway, on signal loss Spektrum cuts throttle to bind position, when signal comes back, throttle returns to stick position. No need to hit hold and release to get throttle back.

On power loss you might need to do this. Of course if you have power loss, you have other problems that need fixing.

Not that it matters, but I have only done the bind process once since I got the AR7200BX.

My personal opinion is that I like it the way it is because I like the feature. I really don't see that this is a big deal. A simple app note will inform future users. Until then, a sticky in this forum would be a good start.

Guess I am too stupid to understand the need for Spektrum to throw out one of their features because other manufacturers have features that are incompatible.

Anyway. Mine is setup now, so I am going flying. This problem is behind me now, and should be for anyone that has read this thread.

Waff

[scott s]

No you are not following what I am saying. I am not saying anyone is to stupid and you are a little off base here! My ar7200bx is not behaving as it should after a signal loss, not power loss. My only comment about your situation is that you said you were able to calibrate your esc without your ar7200bx seeing a zero throttle. And then you said after you rebound a few times you were not able to do this after initial power up. You should have not been able to calibrate on initial power up if the smart safe feature was working properly period. Mine if what is said is true is going back to a no throttle signal after loss of signal not a brown out and supposedly it is not supposed to do this. I am not home to try a few things with it. For those that have not read this thread or do not even follow freak there still are no instructions posted by horizon/spektrum on how to allow calibration as of yet that I have seen. Why were you able to calibrate without your ar7200bx not seeing 0 throttle. Then all of a sudden after rebinding a few times you were not as it should be. Maybe you should wonder about that just a bit..

[jamesb72]

I've been reading latest posts pretty horrified at the thought of a radio hold being fatal, so have just checked this, and radio link loss does NOT trigger 'SmartSafe' (thankfully - much as I respect David, if it had, this would have been a huge issue for me). I've also checked the smartsafe switches off at anywhere below about 1/4 stick so doesn't need a 'true zero' output - the Hold setting for CC auto-bailout is well below this point, so ar7200bx starts outputting throttle as soon as I power it up even with my throttle hold on (16% throttle position, which is 86% low or so on DX8).

I have posted a video on youtube showing this test for clarity:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIVCmiLUPv0[/ame]

I have AR7200BX on Trex 550 with ICE 100 and autobailout enabled, I have throttle hold at 16% (ESC will not arm at this point, or soft start be enabled).

First test was with ESC plugged in as normal (blades removed)
Power up DX8 as normal with throttle hold ON, then power up Heli, ESC won't initialise (and I believe no throttle signal output from AR7200BX as not seen zero throttle)
flick hold off and low throttle stick, ESC now arms (I assume AR7200BX see's zero throttle, so starts outputting zero throttle signal, this allows ESC to arm)
spool up heli then flick hold again, rotors stop, (ESC remains armed, soft start not triggered).
switch DX8 off then on again (motor doesn't move as I bound the AR7200BX in hold at 16% throttle, so it will auto-bailout in the case of a radio hold), Telemetry alarms for radio hold - press clear button to clear alarm
move throttle to mid stick (hold still on), then flick hold off, motor immediately spools up, confirming that AR7200BX is outputting throttle despite not having seen zero throttle position since radio hold/failsafe.

After doing this, I suddenly wondered if 16% throttle might be low enough for AR7200BX to 'disable smartsafe', so disabled warnings for throttle high/idle1/idle2, and redid this test in idle2 100% flat throttle plugging a servo into throttle output on AR7200BX - powering up AR7200BX the 'smartsafe' does not output throttle position until throttle is 58% low (according to monitor screen on DX8), I then flick to idle2 throttle servo goes to max, I then switch off DX8, after a second throttle goes to idle (failsafe position), I then power DX8 back up and throttle servo jumps back to 100% - I think this is a pretty conclusive test.

On the basis of these two tests, I am happy that my AR7200BX will only go into 'smartsafe' on power up, not after a radio hold.

Regarding the 'smartsafe being a safety feature in flight' argument, I've also rubbished this completely. If I simulate a brownout (quick disconnect/reconnect bec power) with heli on the floor and radio on it will initialise in ~12 seconds - almost certainly too long not to crash anyway HOWEVER if the heli is moving at all, AR7200BX will never intitialise, also if the radio sticks are moving AR7200BX will never initialise, I waggled sticks and moved heli for about a minute before I got bored, as soon as I stop moving sticks and stop moving heli, the AR7200BX will initialise - in reality this could never happen in flight, so any brownout is a guaranteed crash - to be fair, I am pretty certain this is the case for any FBL unit, certainly I'd expect it, and consider it unavoidable.

I am pretty sure that there is no scenario with an electric heli where smartsafe is of any value whatsoever, so this is just a pointless irritation for ESC setup.

[scott s]

Ok, I just got home a while ago and tested my ar7200bx again and still it will not output a throttle signal when a radio hold is induced and signal regained! I even rebound at my auto rotate enable hold setting which is 16% as jamesb72 and tried again. I am gonna clear the beastx and unplug everything and do a total re set up. I will post when done. I sure hope something turns out for the better HA!

[lowflyer101]

Originally Posted by scott s

Ok, I just got home a while ago and tested my ar7200bx again and still it will not output a throttle signal when a radio hold is induced and signal regained! I even rebound at my auto rotate enable hold setting which is 16% as jamesb72 and tried again. I am gonna clear the beastx and unplug everything and do a total re set up. I will post when done. I sure hope something turns out for the better HA!

My 7200 bx work fine, its alway good thing to rebind the after finnal step set up radio/ throttle cari. Then maiden

[scott s]

Well I have good news and iffy news. The good news is my ar7200bx now works as it should after an induced radio hold. The iffy news is I am not really sure why. After removing the hot glue from the connectors (used for safety) when I was unplugging everything I noticed that the bec/throttle cable connector from in this case an ice lite 50 was loose and pretty much fell off on it's own. This esc has been in a few 450;s but never crashed. Upon further inspection i could see that the wires just where the go into the connector housing were pinched and particuarly the ground and worse the signal wire looked totaly smashed flat. I cut the old connector off just behind the housing and crimped on new pins and put on a new housing. I redid the whole set up and then again rebound the 7200 to my auto rotate enabled hold setting by matching the throttle low position to the hold position shown on the monitor. I did not re calibrate the esc as it was calibrated already. Spooled up the heli(no blades of course) and after soft start disengaged I turned of and back on the tx. This time not only did I get instant control of cyclic etc but the motor fired back up also. I am at a loss other than the wires and connector as the heli before would throttle up and work perfect but after a radio hold I could not get a throttle output without going to a total 0 throttle and back.
So on the bright side it works but on the not so bright side I am leary because I am not sure what fixed it.
Now as far as my opinion of the new safety feature it still stands that I am in 100% agreement with jamesb72 above. As an in flight safety feature I can not see this as true reality and agree that it is pretty much "just a pointless irritation for esc set up"
I guess we now all wait to see what horizon/spektrum decides.

[lowflyer101]

I guess horizon aim to sell their product world wide, And still many brand esc do not have throttle safe features.

Beside, the nitro user, I think the smart safe is a great features, i been flyng nitro for long time and thers are so many time i got hot start which blew clutch , burned out the belt scare everyone away.
Electric user may not like smart safe of 7200bx , but nitro are death yet.

[jamesb72]

Originally Posted by lowflyer101

still many brand esc do not have throttle safe features.

Which brands specifically have you seen without low throttle arming?

I have been flying electric heli's/planes exclusively for last 3 years, I have flown everything from RTF airplane ESC's to hobbywing/align/castle - I'd guess I've bought/owned around 30 ESC's of maybe 6 or 7 different manufacturer/brands, and have flown other peoples stuff on top, and I have never seen an ESC which does this (powers up armed and will immediately spool up if throttle is high). I'd very much doubt they exist, as apart from the safety issue, they would be impossible to program/set end points

Originally Posted by lowflyer101

Electric user may not like smart safe of 7200bx , but nitro are death yet.

I understand for Nitro heli there may be startup scenario's (only through bad practice) where smartsafe might have value.

The AR7200BX is aimed at simplifiying install/setup/equipment which mostly is a benefit to smaller heli's, which are almost exclusively electric - (and enables Horizon to sell BindNFly FBL heli's eg Blade 450X/300X/500X to people looking to move up from MCPX which must be a huge market) - if AR7200BX features are being aimed at the small and dwindling nitro market, I think Horizon may have got their sums wrong

The issue should be that an electric motor can spool up at full torque/power with no warning - which is why you need safety protection (which ESC's provide) to prevent accidentally powering up at full throttle and immediate motor to full power - at a minimum you will strip main gear doing this, potentially you could have injury/property damage on top - especially if this happens indoors.

With a nitro you have to consciously start the engine - when you will be holding the head - so even if engine starts full bore (ie if you haven't switched radio on and checked functions first, or you have throttle channel reversed, or you haven't got hold on and throttle stick was knocked to full), then you can hold the head against slipping clutch, and stop the engine by pulling fuel tube off in a few seconds - you might overheat/wear the clutch out, might even strip gears, but assuming your not firing up a nitro in your house there isn't any real danger (and if you do this more than once, then perhaps flying model helicopters is not the hobby for you !).

I respect that its completely up to Horizon/Spektrum if they choose to insist smartsafe is a safety feature for nitro helicopters (and will presumably implement this great new feature on all their new receivers), thats their call - but for electric heli's, I can only see it as a hindrance. And if it gets them a bad reputation for ease of setup (especially with the small heli/internal BEC users which I am guessing makes up the majority of their target market), and hits sales, then I would expect a pretty quick U turn on this.

[Waff]

Here is a procedure that will work to setup your ICE ESC with your AR7200BX, without using a separate power supply. This procedure was done with a DX7 radio, so make adjustments where needed for your radio. This procedure does not care if your equipment is brand new or well used, previously calibrated or not. It will work. This assumes you are running the ICE in governor mode. You may or may not use Auto Rotate feature, that’s up to you. You may or may not like the Fail Safe feature, but it matters not. It is there, so you must deal with it. Follow this procedure step by step, and it will work every time. Here we go:


- Before you start, remove your rotor blades and tail blades!
- Set Throttle Curve for ST-1 to (70,INH,70,INH,70)
- Set Throttle Curve for ST-2 to (100,INH,100,INH,100)
- Set Flight Mode to Norm
- Set Throttle Curve for Norm to linear (0,INH,50,INH,100)
- Adjust Travel Adjust for Throttle to H=0, L=0
- Battery unplugged
- Radio off
- Put Bind plug in Bind slot on AR7200BX
- Plug battery in
- Hold down Bind button on back of DX7
- Continue to hold down Bind button while turning on Radio
- Continue to hold down Bind button until flashing light on AR7200BX (or on satellite) turns solid (this light is down by the servo plugs)
- When light is solid, Bind is done
- Remove Bind plug
- Unplug battery
- Radio off
- Radio on
- Plug battery in
- Move throttle stick to High (full throttle, all the way up)
- Raise Travel Adjust H until the motor beeps
- Raise Travel Adjust H two more clicks
- Move throttle stick to Low (zero throttle, all the way down)
- Raise Travel Adjust L until the motor beeps
- Raise Travel Adjust L two more clicks
- ICE ESC is now calibrated for throttle
- Set Throttle Curve for Norm to (0,INH,0,INH,0)
- Flight Mode is still in Norm
- Unplug Battery
- Radio off
- Put Bind plug in Bind slot on AR7200BX
- Plug battery in
- Hold down Bind button on back of DX7
- Continue to hold down Bind button while turning on Radio
- Continue to hold down Bind button until flashing light on AR7200BX (or on satellite) turns solid (this light is down by the servo plugs)
- When light is solid, Bind is done
- Remove Bind plug
- Unplug battery
- Radio off
- Radio on
- If you are NOT using Auto Rotate feature, set Throttle Curve for Norm to (30,INH,30,INH,30)
- If you are NOT using Auto Rotate feature, set your Throttle Hold to 0
- If you are NOT using Auto Rotate, you are done
- Everything after this step is only needed if you are using Auto Rotate feature
- Throttle Curve for Norm should still be set to (0,INH,0,INH,0)
- Flight Mode still in Norm
- Throttle Hold is OFF
- Set Throttle Hold to 0
- Plug in Battery
- Wait for ICE to initialize
- Throttle Hold ON
- Raise Throttle Hold setting until the heli starts to spool up
- Lower Throttle Hold setting until the heli stops
- Unplug Battery
- Radio off
- Put Bind plug in Bind slot on AR7200BX
- Plug battery in
- Flight Mode still in Norm
- Throttle Hold OFF
- Hold down Bind button on back of DX7
- Continue to hold down Bind button while turning on Radio, after turning on radio, immediately switch on Throttle Hold
- Continue to hold down Bind button until flashing light on AR7200BX (or on satellite) turns solid (this light is down by the servo plugs)
- This bind with Throttle Hold ensures that if you have a signal loss the AR7200BX will output your Throttle Hold setting and not your Low Throttle setting. That way when the signal comes back, the ICE will quickly spool up to speed again.
- When light is solid, Bind is done
- Remove Bind plug
- Your are done

Waff

[jamesb72]

That seems very confusing - are you saying to bind at half throttle to effectively disable smartsafe, then rebind at 'real idle' to reset failsafe/smartsafe once ESC is calibrated ?
If that works, why not just bind at full throttle first if thats a solution ? Might make this step by step a lot simpler !

[Waff]

That is correct. But how can you bind at full throttle when you do not know what full throttle is yet? That is why we calibrate, to learn hi and low throttle.

But yes, the first bind ensures throttle will be active so that calibration can work.

You must bind anyway. And setting endpoints to 0 is what you would do to calibrate anyway.

Second bind is for receiver to adjust to new endpoints so that fail safe knows what the new low throttle is. You should always rebind after finishing any new setup.

Third bind is only if you use auto rotate. You want receiver to be binded at throttle hold position. If you skip this bind the receiver will output lo throttle instead of hold throttle if there is ever a loss of signal (not same thing as a brown out). You want to bind to throttle hold so that you get fastest spinup after signal comes back on a signal loss.

There may be a simpler procedure. But this one works without separate power.

For someone not using auto rotate, they would be doing two binds anyway. One to connect to radio, and always a final bind after a setup.

Waff

[jamesb72]

Originally Posted by Waff

That is correct. But how can you bind at full throttle when you do not know what full throttle is yet?
...
There may be a simpler procedure. But this one works without separate power.

OK, I guess binding at half throttle (or higher) may be a workaround for single power source.

I do feel a bit sorry for Horizon, as having introduced 'smartsafe' as a safety feature, they may have painted themselves into a bit of a corner here.

They need to publish a procedure for calibrating ESC's on internal BEC heli's (including their own Blade 300X/450X models, in case people replace an ESC) so people can use the AR7200BX, however I don't believe Horizon could ever recommend people bind at half/full throttle (to disable 'smartsafe', as potential for a subsequent mishap is too great), and their customers won't appreciate having to buy a rx pack just to get round this 'smartsafe' feature just to setup/calibrate ESC.

Alternatively, they have to admit this was a mistake and provide a firmware update to remove 'smartsafe' - this will then have everyone who bought an AR7200BX complaining they have to buy the USB dongle just to fix horizons mistake/bug, and presumably also means Horizon will have to accept returns for update/resending, which must be a huge cost both in shipping and engineer time not to mention the PR effect - people bitching about being without their AR7200BX while its returned to be 'fixed' is not what Horizon want to see on forums.

Not a great choice to have to make - I am guessing by now, the decision has been made and its a question of how long it will take Horizon to announce what happens next.

I'd be very happy to beta test for Horizon (for a free AR7200BX and USB dongle, I'd love to try this on my Trex 250)