600e Pro Tail Blow Outs

[TR450ZS]

My setup: stock Trex600 EFL PRO, with Gensace 12 s 45c 3800 Ah lipos, these packs are New.
Stock tail blades, Edge SE mains.
FBL is a GPRO.
Tail servo is stock align DS650.
Running Castle governor settings as per CC suggested setting for this heli. I don't remember the HS off hand, but it has been tached and matches the programmed settings in Normal, Idle1 and idle2.
The BEC is a Gryphon Quasar set at 6v.
I don't fly hard at all, gentle sport flying and basic F3C manoeuvres.
The heli has had over 20 flights with no hassles at all.
This weekend I performed a pull back after a high stall, then pulled backward again into a backward high stall. No problems.
On the 3rd pullback, at the bottom of the loop I heard the tail blades bark once and in a split second the heli had done a 180degree turn and then it continued nose forward as if nothing had happened. Thereafter it did this again once, during a few successful pull backs.
I understand all about the low tail gearing on this bird, but surely flying backward in a straight line (there was a crosswind of about 4knots), should not be too much for this heli to handle.
Now to prevent this happeing again, I wonder if upgrading to a DS655 tail servo will work?
Or is it a case of having to go for the 105 tail blades?. I am not going to do the gear ratio mod, I would rather just sell it than start modding the frame holes etc...
Will a better servo fix this, keeping in mind my flying style, with nothing hardcore.?

[Heli.Maniac]

The bark-like sound that the tail blades made is definitely the tail stalling out on you. Rather than replacing a tail servo (which will 90% not solve the problem) I suggest you fit the 105mm tail blades if you have the standard FBL head or do the old tail ratio gear mod and forget about blow outs. I say that because I have an RJX HV servo on mine and with the 95s at 2250, it still felt weak and like it was ready to blow out any second on a tail down fast funnel.

[OnTheSnap]

Do you have the tail limits maxed out?

[ReadyToCrash]

Originally Posted by TR450ZS

My setup: stock Trex600 EFL PRO, with Gensace 12 s 45c 3800 Ah lipos, these packs are New.
Stock tail blades, Edge SE mains.
FBL is a GPRO.
Tail servo is stock align DS650.
Running Castle governor settings as per CC suggested setting for this heli. I don't remember the HS off hand, but it has been tached and matches the programmed settings in Normal, Idle1 and idle2.
The BEC is a Gryphon Quasar set at 6v.
I don't fly hard at all, gentle sport flying and basic F3C manoeuvres.
The heli has had over 20 flights with no hassles at all.
This weekend I performed a pull back after a high stall, then pulled backward again into a backward high stall. No problems.
On the 3rd pullback, at the bottom of the loop I heard the tail blades bark once and in a split second the heli had done a 180degree turn and then it continued nose forward as if nothing had happened. Thereafter it did this again once, during a few successful pull backs.
I understand all about the low tail gearing on this bird, but surely flying backward in a straight line (there was a crosswind of about 4knots), should not be too much for this heli to handle.
Now to prevent this happeing again, I wonder if upgrading to a DS655 tail servo will work?
Or is it a case of having to go for the 105 tail blades?. I am not going to do the gear ratio mod, I would rather just sell it than start modding the frame holes etc...
Will a better servo fix this, keeping in mind my flying style, with nothing hardcore.?

hi,
this is not a matter or tail servo. the 3.85 ration is just too little.
i'm still unfamiliar to some technical terms of this hobby. if you mean an aggressive backwards loop, yes, this is how i've had most of my blow outs. the tail just won't hold in that situation and the heli will rotate just like you described. it can be very scary.
if you're not running 600mm blades, just throw 105mm tail blades and the problem is gone. you can even use 105mm blades with 600mm main and try it since you are not flying any 3d. you can also push the boom block and use the 0.6 front gears, but you've said you dislike this idea. if you fly 600mm blades, you still can cut a 105mm kbdd tail blades to 101mm and give it a try. this last option didn't work for me, though.
i run 570mm main blades so 105mm on the tail works fine for me.
this is an align thread, i have aligns and i don't mean to bash it, but i need to say this isn't the only issue 600pro has. its cyclic stability isn't good at all. i can feel that clearly when i fly it and then i fly my logo in a row. it is a different world.

[TR450ZS]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Do you have the tail limits maxed out?

Yup. Rudder stops just as it is about to bind up.

[TR450ZS]

I guess I will be fitting 105 blades then. I have the EFL head which gives better clearance too. What baffles me is that the owner of my LHS also flies a 600 PRO, but his is DFC. And he flies the daylights out of that bird. And he can't believe that tail blow out is an issue on 600's, he has never heard of the problem and has never experienced it. And he flies a lot harder than me. Granted, he is not runing governed, but uses flat throttle curve so maybe he is running a higher headspeed than mine.

[jmtyndall]

Out of the box, ungoverned is something like 2700 rpm. You couldn't blow the tail out if you tried.

With that said, I was wanting to run 2200 until I looked at the align 700 forum and dudes there are running 2200-2400. So I'll just fly my 600 the way it is

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by jmtyndall

Out of the box, ungoverned is something like 2700 rpm. You couldn't blow the tail out if you tried.

With that said, I was wanting to run 2200 until I looked at the align 700 forum and dudes there are running 2200-2400. So I'll just fly my 600 the way it is

I don't understand the logic of comparing 2 completely different designs that share no common parts.

[jmtyndall]

The logic being "safe and sane" headspeed.

My 600 only has two flights. I don't know anything about anything

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by jmtyndall

The logic being "safe and sane" headspeed.

My 600 only has two flights. I don't know anything about anything

Lol. You're running 2700?

[jmtyndall]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Lol. You're running 2700?

No! 2350/2400 because I haven't modded anything yet.

The other guy mentioned his friend runs it flat out ungoverned with no tail issues. I believe this to be roughly 2700rpm, which is why this person had no tail issues

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by jmtyndall

No! 2350/2400 because I haven't modded anything yet.

The other guy mentioned his friend runs it flat out ungoverned with no tail issues. I believe this to be roughly 2700rpm, which is why this person had no tail issues

It's been years, but at 2350 the tail was pretty darn good. But I ran it gov'd and had 2.5m flight times. Wasn't a good compromise. It was fun. But total overkill unless you just want to impress your friends. :-)

[jmtyndall]

I like the noise it makes :p

I'm getting 4:00 on 3300s for now. Except when I hit OC protection

[TR450ZS]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, and for this thread.
I fitted a set of 700E skids, already had a Fusuno extended tail fin on, and I bought pair of Rail106 tail blades. It rained most of the weekend, but this afternoon it cleared up enough for a few flights.
There was once again a cross wind at the field, although slightly stronger than last weekend, and I was able to do a couple of consecutive pull backs with not a hint of blow out at all. In fact the heli just feels so much more stable now, with much better tail authority.

By the way, with my flying style I get 7m flight time out of Gensace 12s 3800mAh 45C packs, and they come down at 25 - 30% remaining. I think it's probably a little quieter than jmtyndall's heli

[cobieg]

Originally Posted by ReadyToCrash

It is interesting how they fly awesomely on those promotional videos. I wonder if they fly that well because they are great pilots, or because the heli is just perfect in every aspect or because the heli has been especially prepared for that flight. I always wanted to know the answer…
I find hard a heli to last 100 flights nowadays w/o having to change some parts that will surely wear out in the process. Pilots fly very aggressively today and motors are very powerful. It places a big load on the entire heli structure, I think.
The main issue to me is the extremely low tail ratio since flight one and the problems it causes during flight. I don’t think align will solve this problem any time soon. If it was to happen, they wouldn’t release 550l with the same ratio.
If the 105mm blades don’t fit you, why not to move the boom block a tad forward and change the front gears to mod 0.6? It will give you the 4.5 tail ratio. I did that on one of my models and it flies very well. Zero tail issues anymore. The only hassle is to make the frame holes 1mm longer so you can push the block forward.

Getting ready to maiden my 600 pro DFC w/510 kv motor. The esc gov. set rpm anything over 2200 gets the warning box pops up. If Align says to run at 2500 are they using a flat throttle with no gov.? I have mine set to 2200. If I get tail blowout, where can I find this gearing mod. ?

[Heli.Maniac]

Originally Posted by cobieg

Getting ready to maiden my 600 pro DFC w/510 kv motor. The esc gov. set rpm anything over 2200 gets the warning box pops up. If Align says to run at 2500 are they using a flat throttle with no gov.? I have mine set to 2200. If I get tail blowout, where can I find this gearing mod. ?

Yes, they are using flat curves @ 100% for 2500. You can always ignore the warning on the Castle, it is only there to inform you. If you type 2500 rpm on the box, it will still try to reach that headspeed when you are going to fly. As for the gearing mod, here is a thread with lots of info: https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=319986
Good luck on your maiden.

[Smoggie]

One soilution is a mid stretch. i did a 35mm stretch using Trex 700 parts which allowed me to use 323mm main blades and 105mm tails and still have plenty of blade clearance with the DFC head. it's only an evening of work.

[jmtyndall]

I keep thinking about a stretch, but I wanted to use fusion 50 parts, and that heli is discontinued

[Smoggie]

Using the Fusion torque tube would save a little time for sure, but cutting down the Trex 700 one is not difficult. By putting a 2mm bolt through it removes any chance of the drive spigot coming loose, so it's every bit as good as new.

[Heli.Maniac]

For anyone that is interested, a couple of days ago I managed to make the main blades and the 105mm tail blades touch during a piro tic toc. I was running 2300rpm with the Align 600mm blades. Fortunately my main blades got away with a couple of surface marks but can't say the same for my tail blades. Strange thing is that I am not using the low DFC head but only the old EFL head. Back to 95s now and 2400 headspeed until I do the tail gear ratio mod. Just a heads-up for anyone that is flying with a similar setup and hard 3D.