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Mikado V-BAR Mikado V-Stabi/V-BAR Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support |
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06-22-2016, 07:26 AM | #1 (permalink) |
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Vbar NEO (non v-link) and BK Servos 8002 and 3001..... freezing
Had a brownout issue that started with a mistake during setup using the Goblin 380 swash leveling tool and my BK3001 servos squishing down on the tool...
the result was obvious... it made a huge amp draw or spike and overloaded the BEC (10A) i was wrong, read on Okay so I'm setting up my 5 NEO's for my 5 Goblins and I find the pitch pump test in the expert swash menu and was inclined to give my 380 a try after concern for any damage I may have caused.... set the test to 50 and after a few seconds of stick slamming the 380 stops, Vbar has power but satellite LEDs go out and Control looses connection.... I finish building up my second 380 with all new parts exactly the same as the other 380 and give it the same test and get the exact same failure.... So now I test all my helis and the 770 with BK HTQ 8001s passes the pump test no problem and I tested it with extreme prejudice.... Also I test my 700 with Align 815s with extreme prejudice and it passed no problems.... I Test my 570 and it failed with BK 8002s badley.. worse than the 380's with a brownout happening if I went from full negative collective to full positive collective very quickly once with pitch pump set to 0 in the Vbar. It would seem to freeze in spots with the BEC at 8v... turned the BEC down to 7.4v and freezing went away... tried other lower voltages and 7.4 was sort of a trade off or should I say took the most effort to get it to brown out.... wasn't much effort though I didn't trust or want to believe it is the servos so I took the NEO off of my 700 and it failed exactly the same on the 500.... Everything has been ruled out and I have every conceivable combination that has been tested and it is down to the servos BK 8002s and BK 3001s... I will be happy to explain all that has been tested but it includes separate receiver pack power and unplugging servos one at a time and yes only one servo would cause it... The 380 needs some crazy stick slamming on the 3001s with pitch pump up above 20 to make it happen and there is no way in heck that someone would fly that way so I am going to leave those helis alone and have 100% confidence they will be fine..... The 570 is another issue, I have flown it with this problem and never new or had any crashes from it because I am just a big air flip & roll with the occasional tic toc kind of flyer at my current experience level.... I can only think of one thing to test now and it is a capacitor but don't think it is going to help... My thoughts are that it is related to the servo speed rating (PWM) and the signal pulses going to the NEO... I think this is the case because the 8001s work like champs but the 8002s are faster and don't.... I love BK servos and really want them on my Goblins so I am in the market to trade up a really nice set of 8002s for 8001s if I can't find a reasonable solution.... I may try an iKon to see if it is just compatibility with the NEO... Any thoughts other than fan boys slamming me would be appreciated. It took a lot of work testing and identifying this problem.
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested Last edited by weracemo; 07-03-2016 at 06:54 AM.. Reason: ruling out compatability problem |
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06-22-2016, 07:47 AM | #2 (permalink) |
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It is not the amp draw that kills it but the back EMF from poorly designed servos. Some BK models have a tendency to do that.
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Henseleit TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS, TDSF Kontronik, Scorpion ESC, iChargers, VBar, VControl Old hand at Planks Peter |
06-22-2016, 09:25 AM | #3 (permalink) | |
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Quote:
"My thoughts are that it is related to the servo speed rating (PWM) and the signal pulses going to the NEO... I think this is the case because the 8001s work like champs but the 8002s are faster and don't...." I wouldn't call the faster servos a poor design if they work with other flybarless units.... to me its a compatibility issue with the Vbar NEO
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested |
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06-23-2016, 02:25 PM | #4 (permalink) |
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And the results are in...
This is going to hurt some Vbar NEO feelings but I tested longer servo wires and a ferrite magnet with the BK 8002s on my 570 neither worked and I removed all three cyclic servos and plugged only one into the NEO and tried the ferrite magnet and also longer servo extension and still neither worked... for the second time I pulled the NEO that works like a champ from my 770 that has BK 8001s and it did not work on my 570 either I did get it working.... I installed an iKon and my DX7 slams the sticks with absolutely no brown outs using BK 8002s!!! I would love for Mikado to explain this because after purchasing 5 NEOs, a Vbar Control with case and 5 satellite rx's along with three UI sensors. I'm a little confused why a NEO will brown out with just five or ten fast stick movements when and iKon will not... I'm requesting an OP to start a list of compatible servos for the NEO to save others some serious $$$$ on servo purchases and or crashes related to this.
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested Last edited by weracemo; 06-24-2016 at 07:31 AM.. |
06-24-2016, 10:26 AM | #5 (permalink) |
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The internal voltage regulator of the Neo are very sensitive to back EMF, no amount of ferrite rings or long servo wires will stop that. It has always been like that with ALL VBar units.
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Henseleit TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS, TDSF Kontronik, Scorpion ESC, iChargers, VBar, VControl Old hand at Planks Peter |
06-24-2016, 12:39 PM | #6 (permalink) |
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When you get the brown outs, have you checked the Neo log to see if there are warnings/errors?
--Ryan
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06-24-2016, 06:41 PM | #7 (permalink) |
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I ran almost an exact duplicate series of tests last year on everything but the Neo, with identical results. My dedicated fix for the issue was to switch from a RX lipo to the WR Super Hercules BEC.
I was (am) under the premise that the Neo was supposed to isolate the back EMF pulse from servos to prevent this issue. In your case, it doesn't appear that it is helping. I haven't tried the BK 8002 servos, only the 8001s.
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06-24-2016, 08:27 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
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Quote:
I made the call to purchase 8001s and will swap them with my 700 so both the big helis will have new servos. I will pull the Align 815s off and put them on my 570 so the 8002s are here and work great with my iKon. I don't have time to hook the NEO back up today just to generate a new log, here's a previous (yesterday) log just pitch pumping... VBar Start -- Goblin 570 -- 23.06.2016 -- 13:07:11 13:07:12;1;Reset Reason: Power On 13:07:15;2;Calibration Finished 13:07:20;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:07:20;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:07:37;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:07:37;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:08:03;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:08:03;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:08:06;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:08:07;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:08:09;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:08:09;4;RC Failsafe activated VBar Logfile End -- 23.06.2016 -- 13:08:43 another shaking the Vbar to see if the tail servo will cause it.... VBar Start -- Goblin 570 -- 23.06.2016 -- 13:13:11 13:13:12;1;Reset Reason: Power On 13:13:17;2;Calibration Finished 13:13:17;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:13:17;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:13:30;3;High Vibration Level 13:13:40;4;Extreme Vibration Level 13:13:47;4;Aileron Sensor Value out of Range 13:13:50;4;Extreme Vibration Level 13:14:00;2;Raised Vibration Level 13:14:11;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:14:11;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:14:11;4;Extreme Vibration Level 13:14:13;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:14:13;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:14:16;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:14:16;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:14:21;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:14:21;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:14:21;4;Extreme Vibration Level 13:14:48;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:14:48;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:15:16;4;Aileron Sensor Value out of Range 13:15:16;3;RC Input Packets lost 13:15:17;4;RC Failsafe activated 13:15:19;4;Aileron Sensor Value out of Range 13:15:21;4;Extreme Vibration Level 13:15:31;3;High Vibration Level VBar Logfile End -- 23.06.2016 -- 13:16:06
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested |
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06-24-2016, 08:31 PM | #9 (permalink) | |
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This is not a cheap hobby...
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested |
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06-24-2016, 08:49 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
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Quote:
Now the Ikon didn't use a pitch pump similar to the Vbar, but I was able to shut down the blueline and mini without increasing the PP value. The silverline, I did have to increase the PP.
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06-25-2016, 01:15 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
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I now have BK 8001s mounted to my 700 and the Align BL815Hs up and working on my 570 and I pitch pumped at max like crazy with no problems... same NEO that puked with the BK8002s and same BK8002s that had no issues what so ever with the iKon.... Again, it would have saved me a lot of money and time if we had a compatibility list!!!
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested |
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06-28-2016, 02:46 AM | #12 (permalink) |
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This is not new. Reminds me about the MKS servos stopped working when Mikado update 5.3.2 to make their FBL unit compatible with the Savox servos in Logo combo. Dont remember what MKS servo models.
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06-28-2016, 07:14 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
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Further, RC Heli Nation promotes the Vbar NEO and BK servos which surprises me they didn't bother to tell us the full size 8002s are not compatible..... I've been flying for four months now, are we supposed to just buy a bunch of different full size servo brands and test them with the NEO for ourselves... I should be really mad but I am not because I was lucky and from having discovered this on the bench had absolutely no damage to any of my helis Now I have a really expensive set of paperweights unless I go with a different fbl system.
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested Last edited by weracemo; 06-28-2016 at 09:20 PM.. |
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06-28-2016, 10:10 PM | #14 (permalink) |
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When all this was going on last year (or maybe the year prior - it's amazing how fast time can pass by, and being 2/3 senile doesn't seem to resolve that part) I asked the same questions you are asking, particularly how Mikado USA was selling the BK line of servos when it was pretty well known that they were causing issues with the older vbars. It's been long enough that I don't recall the exact reply, but I see they are not advertising them on the website. I do recall I had several discussions with Ranier over on the Vstabi forum, and was basically told the Neo would resolve all the issues.
I ran my tests with the 7001 and 8001 servos, along with Align 700 servos, Savox 2271s, Torque 9180s, and JR 8919s. The only ones I ever had any issues with was the BK 7001s, and again, only on Vbars, never on Ikons. Here is a reference of the issues with the older Vbars: https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=697104 https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=690880 https://www.helifreak.com/showthread...=629689&page=4 I sure don't want to give you the idea that I am down on Vbars, because that is all I run along with the Vbar Control TX. After all the testing I did, I am pretty confident (actually really confident) about the WR Super Hercules power and bus arrangement, as I have it on my 690SX and have been running it for over a year now with no issues.
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06-28-2016, 10:56 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
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I don't see how a BEC can be better than a separate rx pack. I believe the separate power and bus arrangement are most likely what makes the 8002s work. The rx pack will supply far more amps than the BEC and must be cleaner since it is a direct DC connection. All said, I hope you agree that we could use a compatability thread regarding this and dedicated to getting to the bottom of what works and doesn't so people will have a reference regarding what to buy and what to do with the components they have... We both agree that the NEO is great but why not fix this black eye?
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested |
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06-29-2016, 01:38 AM | #16 (permalink) |
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You could try a cap and see how goes...
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06-29-2016, 02:16 AM | #17 (permalink) |
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I don't have a total EE background, but a CAP only has the ability to store energy and then release it back quickly. If it is only a high current issue, then the cap will work to supplant either a RX pack or a standard BEC.
The issue is back EMF pulses. Mikado wrote up this phenomena on their website and demonstrated the effect of a back EMF pulse using high quality test equipment. I tried adding in a capacitor, and it did nothing to resolve the issues. The only fix I was able to come up with that worked was to run the WR BEC. I agree that it would be nice to publish a compatibility chart, but I don't really think it will happen. As I said earlier, the NEO was supposed to resolve the issue, but it didn't apparently happen.
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06-29-2016, 03:47 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
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There may be something else going on. I would go on the Vstabi forum as well, and post a complete log for the developers to analyze. I too had all sorts of grief with the older vbars browning out, but not the NEO. Let us know what the Mikado guys say.
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06-29-2016, 04:31 AM | #19 (permalink) |
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https://www.helifreak.com/showthread...56#post7030356
You even posted in that thread, the OP there had a bad servo, and as Pard have posted something else but the FBL unit is at fault here, especially all the "Failsafe" messages. Check your RX system and/or satellites and wiring. Strange thing is the OP in above mentioned thread is now happily running BK servos.
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Henseleit TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS, TDSF Kontronik, Scorpion ESC, iChargers, VBar, VControl Old hand at Planks Peter |
06-29-2016, 07:15 AM | #20 (permalink) | |
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Please read my entire post here. I have explained that I tested this with multiple NEOs and separately on different helicopters and with different power sources. For me skeptically, the final test was to try my previous fbl system which was an iKon and it worked fine to my disbelief. Now, I just can't believe that something is wrong with these servos if the previous fbl system can be swapped with the NEO and everything works fine. I have thousands invested in five systems and to my dismay, the previous fbl system works but the NEOs do not. I really want the NEO to work and I am willing to test anything new to see if I can get it working but I believe I have tested just about everything that can be tested. The only thing I have recently found that I have not tested is a completely separate servo power bus. I will be researching this, purchasing, and testing to see if I can get these servos working this way but again my previous fbl system does not need this and never froze. Please note with the 8002s, the freeze was so bad that I could quickly go from full negative to full positive pitch twice and they would freeze, even tested this with one servo and it would freeze. This seems to be a signal issue, not a power issue. I believe the NEO communication cannot handle the rapid pulses of super high speed servos hence the Vbar would stay powered but the satellite would brown out as witnessed by the LEDs turning off on the satellite.... but what do I know, I am not an EE. FWIW, I do however work with electronics quite a bit with my real job so I am careful and try to be through with testing. For now, I purchased 450.00 worth of BK8001s because they have had zero issues with my 770. Neither have the Align 815s. by this weekend I will have the 8001s hooked up and tested, i'm just 1k miles from home handling plc programming and instrumentation for a refinery at the moment.
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Goblins 770, (x2)700s, 630, (x2)570s, 420, 380, Comet??, TDR 2 & Trex250,,,,100%Vbar, BK, Xpert, Kontronik, Hobbywing ,,,, Czn#760 If there's a better heli I'm interested |
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