Changing 600Pro Tail Gear Ratio

[Helico-pteron]

Trainwreck...I am not disappoint!

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by matchbox

OTS That sound a lot to heavy. Maybe you mean LBs not KGs

Oops. Brain cramp. Yes lb not kg.

[trainwreck]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Hey Trainwreck,
Great post. Good to know the tail holds under hard flight conditions at 2340. The highest headspeed I ran tests on was 2250 and would still get blow outs with 95mm.

As far as weight goes, mine came in at 8.6lb with Voltz 3700mah. What's your AUW? A friends Logo600 with 10s5000 mah is at 9lb. With 5s4000 he's around 8.7lb or so. So I don't think weight is to blame for your headspeed cravings. It's likely your T700 running at 2200RPM.

WRT the tail gear failure, what headspeed were you running? Equivalent tail loading at 2250 with 105's is 2500 with 95's.

Great flying btw. Like the fast piro tic tocs, sideways flip tocs, and piro moebius. All things I'm trying to get into my routine this year.

It's a habit of mine to fly bank switching, I'n that video during all the piro maneuvers I am at 2290-2300. hurricanes and hard stops are done at 2340. I probably bank 10 times on a 5 minute flight, constantly changing. When I stripped on the 105's I was working my way up the throttle curve I'n my stunt 1, so I was anywhere between 2240-2300.

Same goes for the 700, most of my flight is done at a reasonable 2120. You could be right though, I might just be spoiled from my 90, either that or I fly with tim jones and the beast to much and it's rubbing off. Lol

Those 3700 65c pulse packs dwarf those voltz packs. Even the 3300 45C' pulse are bigger. I know my 600 is a solid 3/4 Lb heavier than L600 but will weigh her In next time I'm at the LHS. Could also just be the different feel of the Heli, they are two completely different machines. Or perhaps the thin plastic frames make it float =p

Ahhh flip toc, that's what you call that. I like it! For the last year I've been calling it a nick- toc haha.

Thanks for the kind words guys

[raptor50luvver]

Yep got to agree that was a great bit of flying,very nice indeed

[matchbox]

Hey Darrin, are you running Radix blades on it? If so how does the wider cord blade perform?
I like that 'Flip Toc' too; very creative. I'll have to give it a try.

[Helico-pteron]

Originally Posted by matchbox

Hey Darrin, are you running Radix blades on it? If so how does the wider cord blade perform?
I like that 'Flip Toc' too; very creative. I'll have to give it a try.

I ran Radix FBL for a bit, but found that the 3G blades flew a little better.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by trainwreck

It's a habit of mine to fly bank switching, I'n that video during all the piro maneuvers I am at 2290-2300. hurricanes and hard stops are done at 2340. I probably bank 10 times on a 5 minute flight, constantly changing. When I stripped on the 105's I was working my way up the throttle curve I'n my stunt 1, so I was anywhere between 2240-2300.

Same goes for the 700, most of my flight is done at a reasonable 2120. You could be right though, I might just be spoiled from my 90, either that or I fly with tim jones and the beast to much and it's rubbing off. Lol

Those 3700 65c pulse packs dwarf those voltz packs. Even the 3300 45C' pulse are bigger. I know my 600 is a solid 3/4 Lb heavier than L600 but will weigh her In next time I'm at the LHS. Could also just be the different feel of the Heli, they are two completely different machines. Or perhaps the thin plastic frames make it float =p

Ahhh flip toc, that's what you call that. I like it! For the last year I've been calling it a nick- toc haha.

Thanks for the kind words guys

Ok, so in that same routine with the tail gear strip you were running 2340 during all your backwards flight, slowed down to 2250ish to piro tic toc, then had a gear failure?

Running 2340 with 105's is past the 2500 with 95's that Align apparently ran tests with. So you may have overstressed them and they finally gave in your uber fast piro tic tocs.

Sound plausible?

[trainwreck]

When the tail stripped out on the 105's I was still dialing I'n the throttle curve to try the lower hs. With the kontronik at 60% throttle curve i found later it gave me your 2200. When it stripped out I was at or around 68% which would of given me between 2250-2300 rpm. It's at 71% now which gives me a flat 2300, but assuming all your math and gear to torque ratios are correct then anything above 2250 with 105's would be stress level on those tail gears, Espically with the hard piro tic tocs.

I never flew the 105's at 2340 because I was still In test mode finding my happy medium In idle one. But it sounds like even my 2300 would be a little to much on those gears with 105's for hard 3d.

I am more than happy with my current setting though, this thing can fly big and fast with these settings. And the tail is holding like a champ In 70 +mph hurricanes with 95mm tails. If my friend is there today will get it on radar. My record with my 700 is 92mph and tim jones got me with the beast at 115mph hurricanes.

What I am most impressed with is my 5+ minute flight times. At my current head speeds if I'm not hauling balls the whole time flying hard I can get almost 6min which is unreal to me coming from a 700. What kind of flight time is everyone else getting?

[trainwreck]

Just showing how the tail holds under fast hurricanes with 95mm tail blades at 2330 rpm governed. Give me your Feed back guys, Does It honestly sound that ballistic? As if its going to rip its self apart?

Personally all I can hear are the blades biting the air (music to my ears). The slant gear is super smooth/quiet!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ORkKF-R5K0&feature=player_profilepage[/ame]

[OnTheSnap]

2330 isn't crazy at all. The buzz has been about the recommended 2500.

Hurricanes don't cause me blow outs anyway. Max out collective in the hurricane to max speed and drop the tail into a funnel. If it holds it's bullet proof.

[trainwreck]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

2330 isn't crazy at all. The buzz has been about the recommended 2500.

Hurricanes don't cause me blow outs anyway. Max out collective in the hurricane to max speed and drop the tail into a funnel. If it holds it's bullet proof.

Hmmm ok, well maybe it wasn't a valid point for the topic at hand.

You are right about the transition from a high speed hurricane to funnel being a great test for holding power, but i think i did a mild one in the video i posted yesterday. (same test) hard funnel to full collective transition that I did at 2min into the video. If the tail holds there you then have a solid tail. Also nose In full cyclic loops are a great test for tail holding power.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can fly hard and get the tail to hold just fine with less than recommended head speed (2500) on the stock 95mm.

Just another solution to add to the list to get maximum tail holding results on the stock blades. Bump up the head speed a little more than Jaime Robertson's 2200. As you stated "2330 isn't a crazy head speed". It doesn't sound crazy and will not self destruct. While still achieving excellent flight times, Up to 6 minutes for moderate 3D.

I Just did the radar gun video to give an accurate idea how fast I was actually flying I'n the first Video experiencing no tail blow outs.

Darrin

[smaze17]

Thanks for taking the time

I'm thinking I may try something like 2000, 2150, 2300 and see how it goes with the stock 95's.

S

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by trainwreck

Hmmm ok, well maybe it wasn't a valid point for the topic at hand.

You are right about the transition from a high speed hurricane to funnel being a great test for holding power, but i think i did a mild one in the video i posted yesterday. (same test) hard funnel to full collective transition that I did at 2min into the video. If the tail holds there you then have a solid tail. Also nose In full cyclic loops are a great test for tail holding power.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can fly hard and get the tail to hold just fine with less than recommended head speed (2500) on the stock 95mm.

Just another solution to add to the list to get maximum tail holding results on the stock blades. Bump up the head speed a little more than Jaime Robertson's 2200. As you stated "2330 isn't a crazy head speed". It doesn't sound crazy and will not self destruct. While still achieving excellent flight times, Up to 6 minutes for moderate 3D.

I Just did the radar gun video to give an accurate idea how fast I was actually flying I'n the first Video experiencing no tail blow outs.

Darrin

Another perspective is that your tail holding power at 2330 is equivalent to a traditional 600's holding power at 2000RPM. Good or bad, that's how much thrust it produces. Longer boomed heli's like the Fusion or Logo can get greater tail holding power at even lower RPMs thanks to more leverage afforded by the longer boom. So the pro needs even more tail thrust vs those models since it has a "short" boom.

[jondabear]

Thanx for the laughs guys ......

Just sold mine on an impulse.......700 time for me......PEACE!.

BTW........dont get stuck .......get some flying in as well.

[Flyinhigh420]

Darrin! Spoken like a true ambassador of the hobby.

Align is lucky to have you As a "field rep" although I feel your sportsmanship and flying skills are at team level.
Your 600PRO video on the last page was the best footage of it In action I have seen to date! I enjoyed it more than Alan AND Danny Szabo's video combined. Great info from both Trainwreck, and OTS... Great thread!
I will now buy my 600 pro In confidence =D

[mickeyjohnston]

Just my opinion, 2200 on the 600 Pro seems to low. As trainwreck stated 2400 doesn't seem high for this heli and I tend to agree, I use to run my 700 at 2200, all running on governor. Darren's flight does prove the 95's will hold not to say the 105's wouldn't be better. The nice thing about this heli is the flexibility. The gear ratio is perfect for governor mode which provides great head room. If you choose to run lower head speeds, it's an easy change buy slapping on some 105's or changing the gears. The lower tail ratio is nice which reduces vibrations. Whatever your need is your can get there with this heli. It’s a good quality heil that comes in under $1000.

I find it funny people are STILL making a big deal on the ratings of the blades. It was pointed out once now lets move on. I think it’s more of proving a point then a real concern on their part. We all know in our heart of hearts the 600 blades are not going to explode at 2500 head speed unless you had been living under a rock for the past few years. People will make a big deal about the sticker on the box but fly blades that are scraped up from tipping over on bad auto's. I sure hope all the people concerned about the rating on the blades obey the speed limits of the road. For all the sticker people, do you check every link before every flight? If your blade gets a slight scrape from a tip over on an auto, do you through those blades in the trash? I hope we don't have any hypocrites here.

What about the company’s that make belt driven heli’s that don’t provide the equipment for grounding? What have been their responses?
I would hate for a brown out while doing a fast hurricane with other people around. That’s a huge safety concern.

On a side note, PRO doesn't mean for pro pilots. I've seen more beginners with 450 PRO's than pros.

Darren, Nice flight!!!

[doublejdj1]

Ok guys I finally had a full day to beat on this heli. Here is my experience with the all stock setup running a number of different high head speeds

First off I will say I like this heli better than my 600n, srimok, 450pro, and mcpx all combined. What a power house.

10-15 mph wind
Basic setup goes like this
2sets of Volts 3300mah 35c packs
1 set pulse 3300 45c
3GX v1.1 set to expert with no other adjustments on the pc setup side
Turned elev and ali down a bit.
Using travel endpoints for tail gain. Set at 51 in a dx7
ESC:
Gov endpoints
Gov gain 10
Pwr 12 also tried 8 and saw no difference esc and motor temps
Timing 0

First 2 flights HS set at N 2000, S1 2200, S2 2350 ( 99 % of flights were in S2)
Everything going really well..... until fast hurricanes into funnels.
Entering a fast hurricane I noticed tail flutter like gain is to high but it held into a funnel. Landed dropped the tail gain to 47. Flutter gone but tail blew out during transfer to funnel. Same thing happened with gain at 48, 49, and 50. 51 is where it was in the first place so only thing to do now is up the HS to see if that helps. 2,400 still lost the tail. Held at 2,500 so at this point no need for gov.. 2500hs seems a bit high for me but it works and man what a rocket ship. Lots of complements on my flying today.

I like the high HS but for me i think the max is going to be 2,450 because blades are only going to be rated to 2,500rpm. At 2450 I still have a smLl issue with fast inverted funnels. I don't like the mod 6 gears as they are not nearly as strong as mod 8 and I don't want to put 105 blades and 700 skids on this sweet low profile bird. Plus like I said I like the higher HS and that will have to come down if I use 105blades or change the gearing to 4.5 I'm thinking the best option is to try the 102's or just slow down my inverted funnels. Every other maneuver I threw at it was flawless. Thoughts? Could the fluttering be caused by gov gain being to high?

[smaze17]

Thanks for the report

I too will just be putting on some 102's and calling it a day. I'm flying her at 2000, 2125 & 2250.

I like how she flies at 2250. Seems perfect to me.

S

[rotaryguy]

I dont see any problem running the mod .6 gears - As far as strength goes, if properly meshed they should be bullet proof in flight. The way I look at it is look back just a very short time ago, the Logo 10 3D and even now the Logo 400 as an example run .5 mod main gears not very thick and you can swing 500mm blades on this gear. If you're telling me that a set of 95mm blades is going to put more force on these gears than a set of 500's, well I'll just leave it at that. -Oh, and the fact I will likely never beat on it hard enough to strip them either.

[matchbox]

They could stand up to 90% of flying and not break. But a 4 point Tic Toc is very hard on all the tail gears, due to the loading and unloading of the gears.
I don't really trust the 0.6 mod. on a heli with 1kW higher output, in that maneuver.
Its that hard on the front umbrella gears, that they are half worn out after 3 minutes of continuous 4 point Tic Tocing.(I know thats a lot, but i want to put them to the test)
I have got used to lubing the front umbrella gears now with silicon oil after every four flights. And this has given the gears a far greater life span.