Curiosity on 16s setup

[Diplo]

Hi All,

Just wondering if anyone has or would try 16s setup with the 800. i understand more the amps the better.

[Jays200]

More volts the better, LESS amps the better.

[Mark17]

I know a few guys have done the 16s 800 with success. I'll be building a 800 xxtreme soon and would consider 16s but I'm not quite clear on the particulars of the motor being wound. I know I can get the yge 160 set up for 16s from the manufacturer and 8s packs are easy enough. Guess I just need to do some homework on the motor choice and getting it wound right. There's not a lot of info I could find on setting up a 16s system.

[Diplo]

The setup i will be running is Pyro 850-50l and kosmik 200HV. Just wanted to be sure that the motor and esc can handle this and how shes flies. cant wait to finish the build

[helinutz]

850-50L ?
I run the 850-40L on 14S and the headspeed is spot on.
I think a higher kv motor on 16S would be a problem to get the gearing right

[rcmarty]

Your going to need to get a YGE esc modded for 16s.

Kosmic max 14s

Martin

[Diplo]

100% will be the 850-50l, has anyone actually done the modded YGE for 16s. i tried searching forums but nothing came up. Oh yes how simple is the vbar setup and stability wise. I am kinda of new to electrics since at the moment all my birds are nitros.

Thanks a bunch all for chipping in

[rcmarty]

The kv of the 850-50l I found to be 500 kv.

Stock motor for 14s is 380kv

I don't think this motor is going to work for you on 16s or even 14s.

You mentioned your new to electrics so i'll add some more info to this for you.

The " kv " of a motor is the rpm per volt applied.

For example the stock 380 kv motor will turn 380 rpm with 1 volt applied , 760 rpm with 2 volts , and so on.

Over looking electrical losses for a minute..

Stock motor is 380 kv X 56 volts ( 14s = 4 volts per cell x 14s ) = 21280 rpm.

Gearing for the heli is designed around this expected rpm

Take the 500 kv motor on 14s for starters = 28000 rpm

Up the pack to 16s (64v) brings up the rpm = 32000 rpm

The 800 only has 3 pinions available - 16t 17t 18t ( stock is 18 )

Even on 12s the 500 kv motor is still spinning to fast. It's been proven several times the 800 won't fly on 12s worth a dang, don't waste your time thinking about it.


There have been some people doing the 16s 800 a while back , try doing a search for 16s or something like that , it has been done before. Comments were positive and the person liked the improvement. On the other hand if it's a real good upgrade it would be far more popular today. I seldom read anything about it anymore.

A YGE esc will do 16s but it will have to be sent in to YGE Germany for the mod. Stock is 14s.


Vbar governor is slick , easy as plugging in the max rpm , then setting a throttle curve to get desired rpm per flight mode. I have mine set to max rpm of 1900 , a flat 95% curve gives me 1800 , 90% I think puts me into the 1750 range.


I used to run nitro before I converted to electric , hope this helps.

If your gearing is wrong ( kv , pinion , or both ) it's like the engine isn't on the pipe and therefore not making any power. Engines have a rather narrow power band , electrics are similar to that but the narrow band is now a combination of power , efficiency (battery abuse) , and electrical efficiency ( not blowing up esc ).

It's best to follow the recommended kv's for a particular heli. With the nitro machines they have a good idea what's going in it and the typical powerband rpm that will follow. They just build to suit.

Hope this helps some.

Martin

[Diplo]

Here is where i am planning to get the power system:

http://www.ercmarket.com/kontronik-p...ess-motor.html
http://www.ercmarket.com/kontronik-c...00-hv-esc.html

If the mod required needs some rocket science i think then maybe i will just keep it simple at 14s. oh and btw any ideas help on what gearing you guys are running with.

also if anyone can recommend good cyclic and rudders servos. I was opting for savox any suggestions?

[Diplo]

Martin you are the bomb...thanks so much with the info. i didnt know we calcualted headspeed how many volts. based on this i think for me it will be more of a headache to get it right with the gearing so will stick to the stock setup but still have the 850 though.
how does this motor hold besides the stock scorpion?

Originally Posted by rcmarty

The kv of the 850-50l I found to be 500 kv.

Stock motor for 14s is 380kv

I don't think this motor is going to work for you on 16s or even 14s.

You mentioned your new to electrics so i'll add some more info to this for you.

The " kv " of a motor is the rpm per volt applied.

For example the stock 380 kv motor will turn 380 rpm with 1 volt applied , 760 rpm with 2 volts , and so on.

Over looking electrical losses for a minute..

Stock motor is 380 kv X 56 volts ( 14s = 4 volts per cell x 14s ) = 21280 rpm.

Gearing for the heli is designed around this expected rpm

Take the 500 kv motor on 14s for starters = 28000 rpm

Up the pack to 16s (64v) brings up the rpm = 32000 rpm

The 800 only has 3 pinions available - 16t 17t 18t ( stock is 18 )

Even on 12s the 500 kv motor is still spinning to fast. It's been proven several times the 800 won't fly on 12s worth a dang, don't waste your time thinking about it.


There have been some people doing the 16s 800 a while back , try doing a search for 16s or something like that , it has been done before. Comments were positive and the person liked the improvement. On the other hand if it's a real good upgrade it would be far more popular today. I seldom read anything about it anymore.

A YGE esc will do 16s but it will have to be sent in to YGE Germany for the mod. Stock is 14s.


Vbar governor is slick , easy as plugging in the max rpm , then setting a throttle curve to get desired rpm per flight mode. I have mine set to max rpm of 1900 , a flat 95% curve gives me 1800 , 90% I think puts me into the 1750 range.


I used to run nitro before I converted to electric , hope this helps.

If your gearing is wrong ( kv , pinion , or both ) it's like the engine isn't on the pipe and therefore not making any power. Engines have a rather narrow power band , electrics are similar to that but the narrow band is now a combination of power , efficiency (battery abuse) , and electrical efficiency ( not blowing up esc ).

It's best to follow the recommended kv's for a particular heli. With the nitro machines they have a good idea what's going in it and the typical powerband rpm that will follow. They just build to suit.

Hope this helps some.

Martin

[Nelvick]

+1 !!!! You are totaly rigth. If you are going to use YGE (that i hate it) go in 16S and change the motor pinion for 17 or 16 to stay in the 1800 - 1900 HS range.

The YGE 160HV has too many problem of overheating in the Logo 800. When i went to ircha 2013 all the Mikado Team pilots had to modified the cooler in the 700 Xtreme because that. Can you imagine in a 800 ?

Now i am with Kontronik Cool Kosmik 200 and i am very very happy with it.

If you are going to change the motor go for the Pyro 850-40L (400KV) motor. will incress the head speed with the factory pinion 18. The original motor scorpion is (380 KV) this one is (400 KV) and with the Kosmik i don't think will be a problem but the YGE i don't know.

Originally Posted by rcmarty

The kv of the 850-50l I found to be 500 kv.

Stock motor for 14s is 380kv

I don't think this motor is going to work for you on 16s or even 14s.

You mentioned your new to electrics so i'll add some more info to this for you.

The " kv " of a motor is the rpm per volt applied.

For example the stock 380 kv motor will turn 380 rpm with 1 volt applied , 760 rpm with 2 volts , and so on.

Over looking electrical losses for a minute..

Stock motor is 380 kv X 56 volts ( 14s = 4 volts per cell x 14s ) = 21280 rpm.

Gearing for the heli is designed around this expected rpm

Take the 500 kv motor on 14s for starters = 28000 rpm

Up the pack to 16s (64v) brings up the rpm = 32000 rpm

The 800 only has 3 pinions available - 16t 17t 18t ( stock is 18 )

Even on 12s the 500 kv motor is still spinning to fast. It's been proven several times the 800 won't fly on 12s worth a dang, don't waste your time thinking about it.


There have been some people doing the 16s 800 a while back , try doing a search for 16s or something like that , it has been done before. Comments were positive and the person liked the improvement. On the other hand if it's a real good upgrade it would be far more popular today. I seldom read anything about it anymore.

A YGE esc will do 16s but it will have to be sent in to YGE Germany for the mod. Stock is 14s.


Vbar governor is slick , easy as plugging in the max rpm , then setting a throttle curve to get desired rpm per flight mode. I have mine set to max rpm of 1900 , a flat 95% curve gives me 1800 , 90% I think puts me into the 1750 range.


I used to run nitro before I converted to electric , hope this helps.

If your gearing is wrong ( kv , pinion , or both ) it's like the engine isn't on the pipe and therefore not making any power. Engines have a rather narrow power band , electrics are similar to that but the narrow band is now a combination of power , efficiency (battery abuse) , and electrical efficiency ( not blowing up esc ).

It's best to follow the recommended kv's for a particular heli. With the nitro machines they have a good idea what's going in it and the typical powerband rpm that will follow. They just build to suit.

Hope this helps some.

Martin

[rcmarty]

I found a thread on the 16s option

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread...ight=16s+setup

Slim pickings for 16s talk though.

Looks like the stock motor was used to run on 16s with a lower throttle curve.

Lower throttle curve is going to be a part 2 of the above info session.

Some speed controls will do whats called AFW ( active free wheeling ) , which means that they can run a lower throttle curve than other non AFW units. Running to low of a throttle setting on a non AFW type esc can result in esc bursting into flames along with lower overall performance.

YGE and kosmic both feature the AFW. I'm sure there are others , but in the 14s to 16s world the choices get slim fast.

AFW does allow for a lower throttle setting but it's not the perfect answer either ( isn't electric confusing ) , lower settings can be used provided the rest of the system works well in this situation.

Laughingstill in the above thread used the stock motor with 16s , then reduced the throttle curve a bit , but also running on the high end of the rpm range. Today there are a few pinions available so one would get the smallest pinion (16t) to be able to run a higher throttle curve to get the same headspeed.

Myself , I would try the stock setup , it's quite powerfull and flies great. Sure there are some hard core power junkies out there that will be looking for more power. That's where the big $$ setups come into play , along with 16s.

Now based on my experience transitioning from nitro to electric , your going to see a huge huge power difference. Power on an electric is instant , little to no lag on the headloading.

I still recall a day at the field when I had my trex 600 running 8s and my 600n running a hyper 50 on 30%
I took the electric out for a boot then fired up the nitro next flight. Back then I did one move a fair bit. I'd come in hot from the right , hard elevator flip inverted then hard punchout inverted to about 300' using as much pitch as I could , roll over and mock auto back down.
I was used to the power of the electric and once I had the nitro up quite high I noticed it seemed real soft on the sticks , then I took a closer look and I could see the blades. I had loaded that poor hyper 50 down so much the disk had changed from a blur to blades on me. I quickly backed out of the pitch and rolled her over and it was all good. That's when I realized how much more power the electric has.

You mentioned this will be your first electric , So I'm going to assume you have some good collective management skills to maintain some headspeed. Combining these skills with electric is going to give make it feel like you have a bit more power on tap.

I can be heavy handed at times on the pitch , quite frankly getting a little lax on the collective management ( far less critical for electric ) and I can still make an 800 look good.

My suggestion would be to try it out stock , get a decent set of packs , good electronic setup and try it first.
You may find it better than first thought.

You asked about servo's above , here's some hardware to consider

Servo's

I like the jr 8917 , there well priced ( ~400 for a 3 pack )
Futaba BLS series great servo's , more cash though
There are many other great options out there also - outrage , mks X8 series , savox , etc

Tail servo

I run the futaba 256hv tail , good solid BLS servo , outrage good , along with X8 again

Servo's are a little bit personal these days , like a ford chevy debate ( how does Toyota fit in .. lol ) . One thing to do is some research when I comes to the radio power.

BEC vs 2s lipo rx pack ( yup , ford chev again ) , or if you opt for the kosmic you can do both.

For example the savox/align servo's are good servo's but there ' power hungry ' and even a quality BEC like a western robotics may have a hard time keeling up with them. Brownouts can cause FBL resets in flight = crash. On the other hand there are less power hungry servo's out there like the futaba BLS series which are lower on the amp scale.

ESC's

If your heart is set on 16s your going to be running a YGE
I've been running the yge in my 700 and 800 for a few seasons and they run great , like them

The premium ESC is the kosmic , maxing out at 14s though. This baby has all the typical kontronics perks. Strong bec , butter smooth spoolup , just a good solid ESC . Downside is it will melt a credit card in seconds flat .. lol . There are a few really nice features like capacity limit and data logging of a ton of stuff.
I like to use the internal bec set to 8 volts then switch on a 'buffer pack' 2s lipo just in case. With this setup the bec provides the core power to run the system, if there is a short demand for power they both team up to provide the amps needed to get the job done. Also any failure on the power leads (unsoldering etc ) , the 2s lipo becomes a backup to do an auto with. ( been there twice last year )

Battery's

There are the top shelf packs out there like thunder power and others. These baby's are expensive.
The branded econo packs are doing very well these days , the C ratings have been coming up past realistic requirements so even econo packs can get the job done well.

Look out for some gens ace or pulse ultra green packs , thor while they last , and several other brands also. Check in with a post and most likely someone will have a review for them. If it's an off brand , maybe just get some gens/pulse packs and call it a day.

Charger.

I prefer to charge as a 14s pack. My favorite charger is the hyperion 1420. This will charge a 14s 5000 mah pack in about 35 mins on 24v source.

Power source.

junsi 1200 watt 50a
chargery 1200 50a
Efuel 1200 50a

Or if you got some time to tinker , get some computer server power supplies teamed up for 24 volts.

I built a custom case with 2 dell 6650 power supplies ( ~ $ 80 on ebay ) that will run 3 of the 1420 chargers at max output.

Hope this helps some.

Martin

[Diplo]

WOWOWOW damn just reading all this info has mi head spinning and i thought nitro can be a mission at times.

Thanks for the effort and time on the write up Marty, by this I think i will stick with 14s for now and just to get the hang of it first. Been reading up abit and never came across AFW but sounds interesting. Still doing some homework so i should get there

Collective managment im pretty ok with, but as you mentioned from nitro to electric is night and day difference. all this amps and volts has got me thinking if i should really jump on the wagon. Then again since my countries laws and Gov are so full of s$hIt, its pretty hard to get 30% nitro here and when you do never lasts. the price as well is so ridiculous that's whats the deciding factor for me, don't get me wrong though i luv my nitros.

Just for note though they have the modded YGE in stock: YGE 160 HV-K 4-16S

Anyhoo i have always wanted an insanely powered 800+ size helli and if im guessing right will be the only 1 here.

The setup I am aming for is as follows.. being 14s: btw whats the difference between the 850-40l and the 850-50l

Motor/ESC:
Kontronik PYRO 850-50L Brushless Motor
Kontronik Cool Kosmik 200 HV ESC

Cyclic Servos:
JRPS8717HV DS8717HV High-Voltage Ultra Speed Cyclic Servo
Rudder Servo:
JRPSMP82G MP82G Wide-Voltage Brushless Gyro Servo

Batteries:
I have always used Pulse ultras in my planks and the 5000mh RX pack in my 600 birds. They have performed flawlessly and quit surprised actually. some of them have been in some really scary crashes and still going strong. I am abit confused on the RX though, you mentioned i can run both bec or direct lipo? whats the benefit of that? can i not just run them off the lipo? i currently just run the elec straight from the RX pack which are the Pulse ultra PLURX-50002 - PULSE LIPO 5000mAh 7.4V (Receiver Battery) - ULTRA POWER SERIES

The power source will be 6 packs of: PLU65-50007 - PULSE LIPO 5000mAh 25.9V 65C- ULTRA POWER SERIES &
4 packs of GENS ACE 5000MAH 25.9V 40/80C 7S1P LIPO BATTERY PACK

Charger:
HP-EOS720DUO Hyperion EOS 720i Super Duo 7S 16N 20A/50W 14S Sync Dual Charger
Powersupply:
HP-CHS1500 Chargery 60A 10-25V 1500W DC Power Supply w/ Digital Display

Flybarless system:
Im currently torn between the Skookum SK-720 BLACK EDITION Flybarless System & the BavarianDEMON 3SX from what i have read so far the Demon 3sx is more on the plus side but it does not have a tail gyro where the 720 does. im looking at these 2 only because they both feature a bail out system. any thoughts would be awesome.

I really appreciate all the help and info all and Marty....you rock. dunno if any of you have seen Timo Wendtland fly his logo. very smooth 3d and relaxing huuuh..damn it the wait is killing me.

[rcmarty]

Looks like a good setup there.

For the motor go with the 40l version. Only difference is the kv of the motor.

40l is 400 kv
50l is 500 kv

Stock is 380 so the 400 is the closest.

Might consider buying a 17t pinion along with the 18t (stock) to fine tune headspeeds to suit the throttle curve.

Kosmic 200 is a great choice , nice unit for sure.

As for the RX power , here's what you do with the kosmic.

Set the bec voltage to 8 volts ( via the progdisk - yes get one of these also ) , then when the esc is powered up have a ( backup ) ' buffer' battery on a switch. Just a small 2s lipo is all that's needed. I run a 2s450mah (130x) battery in my goblin 770.
If for some reason you have a power failure ( esc leads become unsoldered , main pack failure ) then the little 2s lipo will keep the system powered up for an auto.

No problems connecting a 2s lipo ( fully charged at 8.4 volts ) to a 8v bec system. 8 volts won't overcharge the little pack.

There's a procedure to power up though ( or you'll get errors in kos log )

plug in kosmic to main pack and wait for the initializing tones from esc.
( before intiallizing bec is at 5.6 volts , then once intiallized it goes to set voltage )

Then turn on backup power.

To power off I unplug the main pack and see if the radio is still live , this tests the backup system everytime.

Jr8917's are a good servo , I run them myself on my logo's. Said to be average in power consumption , the built in bec with backup lipo will be good.

No direct experience with the tail servo though ( really new ) , but kyle is flying the new jr servo's these days. Jr builds good stuff so I wouldn't expect any issues with it.

I can't offer any input on the skookum or 3dx , I've been flying vbars for a long time now and rather than learn several systems half arsed , I try to figure out one type.

Some reading on the forums should help you decide which is best for you.


Martin

[Mark17]

Is it posible to run a yge 160 that's been set up for 16s on 14s.
And can I run the scorpion 4540 400kv geared down to a proper headspeed so I would have the option of going to 16s later by changing batteries and pinion only

[Nelvick]

Both answers are yes.


Sent from my iPhone IOS 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Mark17]

Great. thanks man. That gets me one step closer to settling on the electrics for the power system. I'm thinking a couple TP 5000s

[Nelvick]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Great. thanks man. That gets me one step closer to settling on the electrics for the power system. I'm thinking a couple TP 5000s

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO...... TP SUCKS They get Puff very easy.... Do not make that mistake. Get Pulse 5000 65C. You will wont be wrong man.

TP is not the same quality than they use to be.

[Mark17]

Lol, ok. I didn't realize the 5000s had issues. I was just going on my only experience with thunder power batteries. I have 4 1300 70c 6s for my 450L that have about 30 flights each with no issues.
I do have a couple Pulse 5000s for my 550 that are a couple years old with about 110 flights each and they are still going strong.
I've always just heard TP are great batteries but very over priced.

[Nelvick]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Lol, ok. I didn't realize the 5000s had issues. I was just going on my only experience with thunder power batteries. I have 4 1300 70c 6s for my 450L that have about 30 flights each with no issues.
I do have a couple Pulse 5000s for my 550 that are a couple years old with about 110 flights each and they are still going strong.
I've always just heard TP are great batteries but very over priced.

for my experience, i invest in 4 TP 5000 MAH 7S, 309.00 each and all of them came Puff in the first 8 flights. I am using a icharger 4010 Duo. Using 80/20 Rule. and all of them came damage.

I have very good experience with Thor but ready heli was the only one selling Thor and you can not buy anymore (that i know) and the Pulse 5000 65C is an amazing pack. Is just like GenAces. They always land cold no matter how hard you push.