What's on your bench today?

[copterboy]

Looking forward to it

[jperkosk]

Gosh, it's gotten dreadfully quiet here since Denis has Avant Girl on the bench, so to speak...
On my bench, PowerLab 6 with MPA parallel board, finally got around to commissioning it. Flashed it, and hit a snag, cell count error!!! Turns out by default it's programmed for Revolectrics balancing connector, had to actually RTFM to find that . Changed to standard XH/EH balancing connector and she's all ready to sing. Even on my bench, with a limiting 15A 12VDC power supply she's charging six 2600mAh 6s packs @ 6A, meaning 1A for each pack, not too shabby:

[copterboy]

Swear I've only seen her twice this week and the rest has been work, work, work!! Oh, and a couple of pints with a mate on Wednesday.

Had a very busy week, but I got everything done I needed to, so I'd decided to have a short break from the heli's. Back to it after my weekend with Jack, some fireworks and a bonfire tonight

Bumped into a mate when having a drink the other night, turns out he has an E-Sky HoneyBee or King that needs repairing, so he's bringing that round for me to look at tomorrow night. Then I'll be back on it for a few nights, now I caught up with some work stuff and other things

Nice setup BTW, exactly what I have in mind to add to the charging station when I get that completed!!

[sutty]

I've got batteries on my bench. Finally got fed up of my ailing packs for the 450, and bought some of these. I was going to get some really expensive packs, but then decided there are far too many reasons that can cause a pack to become damaged, so the chances of getting all the cycles out of them seems slight. I think these are meant to be pretty good anyway, and they were quite cheap.




Had to remove the XT60s as I'm all geared up for EC3, so soon got that done, well, took about an hour. Whilst the weather is bad I'm cycling them by discharging them on the Imax B6, as it has a discharge feature. Is this a waste of time do you think, as perhaps it doesn't really count as breaking them in unless you load them up in a more realistic manner?

Anyway, I'll press on until I hear otherwise, and I'll still do one more easy flight cycle before I go mental on them.

Cheers

Sutty

[Tomstoy2]

Sut, I'm really liking my Nano's! And, you're thinking of what can go wrong is how I feel, too.

With today's lipo technology I really don't know if a proper break-in period is necessary anymore, though it can't hurt.

I know there has been a ton of discussions about the need to not worry about the 20% rule, too.
Seems that with modern batterys, like Nano's you don't need to worry about adhearing to that rule anymore. As long as you don't go totally flat they have no problems at all.
I was reading about a test of this theory conducted by a very reputable dealer. They did 100 flights clear up until the battery couldn't keep their heli in the air anymore, did all the measurements and noted absolutely no difference in another test where the did adhear to the rule.

Me, I still follow the rule, figure it can't hurt.

[sutty]

Cheers Tom, I'm not sure either, but like you say, it can't hurt. I was not able to get to 80% anymore on my last packs. The degradation of performance was so bad that they were now fading onto the LVC before I could fly my normal 4:40. Well, two of them were, but the other two also had a notable drop off, even though they didn't hit the LVC. That's what finally made me buy new this week. Even though they were hitting the LVC, I wasn't able to get 80% back into them. So they really were well and truly worn out. Then again I had a lot of cycles on them, so not too disappointed. The £58.56 delivered for 4, seems like I can't really go wrong. Not to mention that I haven't had to spend anything for ages on my helis. I recently got the Hard Deck module for the CPII, but I paid for that in July, so I was due a tiny splurge.

Cheers

Sutty

[jperkosk]

Andy, to be honest I'm completely confused by the LiPo chemistry, there is so much contradicting information out there that for just about any explanation/recommendation you will find another one to the contrary

I guess it's the result of a fast development in the field...

Read that the reason to cycle brand new LiPo was that the electrolyte has (used to have?) some stabilizing agent added to it to extend the shelf life of a brand new battery. The cycling is supposed to break down the stabilizer, which essentially is a chemical inhibitor and prevents full-out charge-discharge reaction from happening. Sounds good, but don't even know if it's true anymore, manufacturers don't publish crap, possibly on the remote chance of Chinese copying their development

Me, I wouldn't bother breaking-in the LiPo beyond treating it lightly for the first 3-4 flights, meaning not discharging them below 40-50%, which you need to do anyway to establish their true capacity and your flight time.

I also refuse to "store charge" my batteries. I always charge them fully after the flight. In my book, it's the batteries that have to wait for me to be ready to fly, not the other way around. Electric heli has to be a grab-and-fly proposition, otherwise what's the point?

Knowing that low temperature is a huge chemical inhibitor (as a teenager back in Poland I was taking the battery out of my '57 VW Bus and taking it upstairs 4 flights to my apartment on every night the weather service was predicting temperatures below -10°C), I just charge all my LiPos, stick them in a sealed container and store them in the refrigerator. Read a study claiming 25-30% drop in LiPo capacity in a year when stored fully charged @ room temperature vs. 7% if stored couple of degrees above 0°C, but not sure it that's even valid anymore with the newest chemistries Can't freeze them for the fear of any moisture trapped inside of the pack, but storing them above 0°C will definitely help the lifetime.

I also noticed that FMA insistently keeps on providing a "long life" LiPo charging option in their chargers, which charges the batteries to about 90% of capacity, or 4.1V per cell. I'm tempted to use that option on the next batch of 6S LiPoS for my 6HV when I finally get this bird tuned properly.

So to sum up my opinions:

• Break-in: yes, can't hurt, but can be also done in-flight, just take it easy first few flights.
• Storage: charged, in the fridge. Charge to 90% for longer life. Screw the "store charge" theory.
• Discharge: never below 20%, if only to make sure you have the extra 30s to come back and land before you start damaging your packs.

BTW, nice packs!!!

[sutty]

Originally Posted by jperkosk

So to sum up my opinions:

• Break-in: yes, can't hurt, but can be also done in-flight, just take it easy first few flights.
• Storage: charged, in the fridge. Charge to 90% for longer life. Screw the "store charge" theory.
• Discharge: never below 20%, if only to make sure you have the extra 30s to come back and land before you start damaging your packs.

BTW, nice packs!!!

Well maybe they look nice, but that counts for nought if they don't perform. As for break in, I was just trying to get a few cycles on them whilst not flying, so I could quickly get to the five cycles that I was going to give them before I do fly them for the full 4:40 that I normally fly. Not sure if I need to or not, but I'm doing it.

I have managed two very easy flying cycles on them today, taking them to 3.8V ish each time. Landed after about 3:30. They took 1000 mAh on average to charge back up.

A quick calculation shows that to be 285.7 mAh/minute, or 17.1 A, and on that basis I could in theory fly to 6:10, on the 80/20 rule of 1760 mAh for my 2200 packs. That having been said, I'm happy with 4:40, so I think I'll stick with that for now anyway, or if I do increase it I'll only go up to 5:00 at most. Might make them last longer. I wish I had the option to charge them to a lower voltage, but my FMA charger doesn't have that option, unless I'm missing something. If I could I'd go for just a little less than full, not 4.1, but probably 4.15, or 4.18. It has always irked me a little that the Cellpro10S charges them to 4.205 V/Cell when I never really push my packs. If I'm not pushing them in terms of using their capacity, why do I need to push them in terms of brim filling them?

Initially I'm disappointed in the balance level of these new packs. Fully charged, but after resting over night, after discharge, both on the charger and after the flights, there is a mismatch. Not sure if this will improve, but right now I have become used to my packs going back on the charger within a few hundredths of a Volt per cell, and staying that way on the bench too. Normally, by the time I can cycle through to the individual cell voltage section of my charger the pre-balance phase has them all matching within one hundredth of a Volt. Not so with these packs, much further out, all different. Maybe this is what breaking them in means, in that the chemistry will all equalise and level out, so that after a while they will remain better balanced.

Maybe it doesn't matter, or is a function of nano packs. Yet to be seen what will happen, but I'll keep you informed, in case anyone else is interested in giving them a try. Mind you I think there is already enough info out there to suggest that they should be at least okay.

No matter how they turn out, I am having trouble accepting that the C ratings are really 45/90. I mean, 90 burst, in theory, thats virtually 200A, for a few seconds. I find it hard to believe that you would get much life out of them if you were doing that on a regular basis. Even 45C constant must be exaggerated. I mean I've just proved that I'm only using 17 Amps, and I am flying it fairly aggressively. Sure that's an average, and I might be doubling that at points, but that would still only be 34 Amps, or 15C in those terms. In my opinion these ratings can only be for show. I wonder how many cycles you could really expect if you actually discharged them at 45C, with peaks of 90C, and then re-charged them at 10C. I doubt they would even last to 50 cycles.

Cheers

Sutty

[jperkosk]

Are you storing your batteries charged, or do you charge them just before flying, Andy?

Will check for the 4.1V "long life" option on my 10s, not sure if I had seen it there. Definitely on smaller Multi4 and larger PL6, but need to re-visit the programming of 10s.

[sutty]

Thanks Jerry. I haven't noticed an option like that, but then I have no way to get access to advanced features such as that as I have no PC lead.

I keep mine at storage, as much as I can, but don't worry if sometimes I can't get them to storage. For example the 6S packs for the 550, and the 2x4S packs for the 600 have been charged for about a week now, and unless I fly them tomorrow, which I might, then they will stay charged until this weekend coming, as I will be away, and I never worry too much about it when that happens.

One of my 4 new packs is definitely not good, in my opinion. I charged it a few hours ago, and it now has 4.132, 4.194, 4.189. That first one, to just leak away like that, is usually what I experience on my stuffed packs, not a brand new one. I'll see how it looks tomorrow, and after a few more cycles before I contact the supplier, but I am not hopeful.

Cheers

Sutty

[jperkosk]

FMA chargers use the same USB interface that is used for CP2 . FUM3 or something like that...

[sutty]

Really, thats cool, cheers Jerry. Mine is fixed to the 600 at the moment, but that can change.

I'll take a look at the advanced features when I get back at the end of the week.

Cheers

Sutty

[chansen1953]

Hi Jerry and Sutty.. just noticed your discussion re Nano batts.....

I bought about 4-6 of these last year (5000mah 6S) , and used them exclusively thru. summer and about 1/2 of winter. I always charged them fully after each use, and normally flew weekly.. so no real need for any long term storage.. I did have two of them suddenly go bod--- ie one cell went open.. so the whole pack was ~!@#-ed !!. Later , after leaving them for 6 months, I cut them apart and where-ever there was 4 adjoining cells that were OK, I made them up into 4S packs !!..
Upon inspection, I found small holes in the very bottom of the faulty cell... and this I attributed to physical damage, rather than any inherent fault in the pack.. although It did seem strange that ALL of my Nano packs eventually ended up broken withing 12-18 months... (maybe I crashed too much !!)
I now use Zippy's and have had no issues so far...
I suspect that the Nanos may be slightly less strong at the bottom.. but they certainly packed a punch and never let me down power-wise !!

These hicapacity 4S backs , made on cut-down 6s packs I am going to use in my Aircraft, which I am flying a lot at the present..

I have just finished a nice C-47 done up in D-Day colors, which looks fantastic.. nice scale spinners and tri-bladed props.. and should fly realistically on about 1/2 throttle..
I have yet to maiden it , as I broke a prop in the hobby-room when it went to full throttle whilst I was changing to the right model (my bad.. should have had Rx off !!)

Jerry , have you tried out the FMA hard-deck, and where Can I get one ?? Everywhere seems to hove no stock ??

[Luke Warmwater]

Originally Posted by chansen1953

I have just finished a nice C-47 done up in D-Day colors, which looks fantastic.. nice scale spinners and tri-bladed props..

PICS!!
VIDS!!


We need to see this!! Well....I do anyway!

[jperkosk]

Originally Posted by chansen1953

Jerry , have you tried out the FMA hard-deck, and where Can I get one ?? Everywhere seems to hove no stock ??

Not yet, Chris, but Andy did Hopefully I'll be testing it next weekend. Unlikely as it sounds we had rain most of the weekend .

We have preordered the HD modules about 2 month ago directly from revolectrics website, it shows HD module in stock right now



http://www.store.revolectrix.com/Pro...t-II/Hard_Deck

[sutty]

Yes Chris, I have the HD for the CPII and have tested it on the 600. It works as advertised, but it is not for me, as it requires you to fly too high. If you are used to flying at 3 mistakes high, 70-80 feet, then you will like it, if you don't then you will not like it.

You may have read that it can be set as low as 50 feet, which is what I have it set for, however, it is not possible to fly around at 52 feet. Even to suggest that you can fly around at 60 feet is a little unrealistic, as at that height, controlling your height to within 10 feet is too difficult. Sure, a low pass at say 15 feet, then you will have good height control, but up at 60 feet, being accurate to 10 feet is very difficult. This is why I say 70-80 feet, otherwise you are repeatedly banging into the hard deck, and invoking an ER, when there is no need for one.

Jerry hasn't tried it yet, and I am not trying to pre-empt his own report, but my guess is when he does try it he will discover the same thing. I hope not, as he bought 6 of them, but I fear the worst.

Here is a video of me letting the 600 hit the 50 feet HD a whole bunch of times. The best way to know when an HD recovery has occurred is to listen for the sudden periodic blade bark.



Cheers

Sutty

[chansen1953]

luke, ok, I'll grab a few pics tonight when I get home..also of my 2.2Mtr "Phoenix" sailplane... both of these are actually HK kits, but they are very nicely finished. The C-47 was supplied in the passenger version decals, but this looked a bit poxy.. so I decided I liked the D-Day stripes etc...

[jperkosk]

OK, checked Cellpro 10S and indeed it's a very simplified charger compared to Multi4 and PL6, the only options for charging are 1C, 2C, 3C, Storage, and fixed Amps charging. BTW, the black wire on the connector goes towards the near side, it's not marked on the case. The other 2 chargers are much more sophisticated, a wide library of presets plus all of them can be customized... They also include the "long life" option that charges the LiPo to 4.1V/cell; funny FMA hasn't included that option on 10S, maybe they don't think it that relevant?

[chansen1953]

ok luke.. I did put up some pics...

The Sailplane is a lot of fun.. and easy to fly for a newbie at planks... have had about 20 flights over the last 2 weeks.. and it is still in one piece ..

I have yet to maiden the C-47 and it now looks like it has been thru the wars !!

The last pics is of the hobby room ( which used to be the office !! ) The wife says there is definitely no more room for any more helis or planes... !!

The lh 600 is nearly re-built whereas the rh one is a FBL hk600-align - just waiting to be maidened..!.. maybe this weekend .. weather permitting..

enjoy !

btw sutty... I watched your video of the hard-desk flights.. now I am a bit disappointed... I don't think I can fly that far/high away ... I have enough trouble seeing the things at 30' high... so if you want to selel one of your hard-desk modules.. I would like to try one ..so I will pay you full price.. just to try one out !!
. let me know b4 I buy one ?

[sutty]

Hi Chris

The far away part was because I was testing it. I wanted to lessen the height effect by having distance, which meant that the observing angle was less. If I had been doing those recoveries near to me, whilst I was at 50 feet, they would have effectively been overhead, and I would have been having to have been trying to re-take control, from unexpected orientations, in a position / view angle that I was not familiar with.

Having it do a snap recovery at 50 feet, 20 feet in front of you, feels almost like it is out of control whilst overhead. Something which I avoid with a passion. Now if this was invoked in an emergency situation, automatically, making true use of the system, rather than just testing it, then this would be okay, and you would probably be safe too, as long as you could remain calm and apply appropriate collective and tail, as it won't actually let you turn the heli over. I think after recovery, below the deck, the maximum bank angle is 20 degrees, so it is quite hard to put it in.

As for letting you have a module, sorry but I don't have one spare. I only bought the one for the 600. Actually after what you just said about it I'm surprised that you still want to give one a try. Be that as it may, it was Jerry who bought 6, so maybe he would be pleased to let you have one, not sure. Maybe he bought them so that he can sell them on as completely set up beginner helis, as he moves forward onto bigger and better things. Not sure, see what he says.

Nice looking planks and 'office' by the way.


Cheers

Sutty