LOL @ the silly FAA

[JonJet]

Originally Posted by EEngineer

Absolute malarkey.


When an AMA sanctioned event is held....at any location....all rules are to be upheld.


By making such a statement you demonstrate that you are not an AMA member.
Please avoid making such "uninformed" malarkey.


FWIW

Perhaps you need to do your research...because the AMA does not even sanction events held at their own field

Did you attend the event held there recently? It was held at the AMA headquarters field, but the event was IRCHA...not AMA

Clubs and organizations sponsor events...and enforce their own rules, which are created using AMA guidelines

AMA does not sanction or sponsor any fields or events

[Mike A.]

The FAA is trying to do something that can be easily adopted by the masses (using an APP), good for them. Glad to see they are trying new ways to get the information out there before some D-Bag has an encounter with a full scale aircraft.

My club is about 3 miles from an airport. A couple of guys from the club met with the airport manager. Everyone agreed that there weren't any issues with our field ops, some contact info was exchanged and that's it. They don't want us calling every time someone is going to fly.

[Ace Dude]

Originally Posted by JonJet

Clubs and organizations sponsor events...and enforce their own rules, which are created using AMA guidelines

The AMA safety code is not a guideline and is always in effect. Competition regulation deviation is permitted with approval from the AMA technical director. The form is on the website for anyone that is interested.

[KiloXray]

So, we recently (Air Traffic Control) received guidance from the FAA regarding this exact topic. I'm going to post it here because it will affect some of you guys that have "standing" agreements with the airports you fly near. This was effective as of 02 Sep 2015. Pay particular attention to section 3.

Originally Posted by The FAA

KRWA NOUS2 021900 GENOT RWA 15/21
N JO 7210.886
FF ALRGNS 1/500/530 AMC-1 AMA-500 ACT-1 ALATFO XVM
EFFECTIVE: 09/02/2015
SUBJECT: MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS IN THE VICINITY OF AIRPORTS

1. THE FAA IS REVISING ADVISORY CIRCULAR 91-57 WHICH PERTAINS TO MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATING STANDARDS DUE TO NEW STATUTORY REQUIREMENTS FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT CONTAINED IN SECTION 336 OF THE FAA MODERNIZATION AND REFORM ACT OF 2012. THE FAA HAS ISSUED AN INTERPRETATION TO CLARIFY THE AGENCY’S UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE REQUIREMENTS.

2. IF AN OPERATOR OF MODEL AIRCRAFT PROPOSES FLIGHT ACTIVITY WITHIN 5 STATUTE MILES OF AN AERODROME, THE OPERATOR MUST NOTIFY THE AERODROME OPERATIONS MANAGER PRIOR TO ANY OPERATIONS. ADDITIONALLY, IF THERE IS AN ACTIVE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC) FACILITY LOCATED AT THE AERODROME, THE AIR TRAFFIC MANAGER MUST BE NOTIFIED PRIOR TO THE PROPOSED MODEL AIRCRAFT ACTIVITY.

3. IF NOTIFIED, THE AIR TRAFFIC FACILITY MANAGER IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE FOR:
A. ENSURING OPERATIONAL PERSONNEL HAVE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION:
1. GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION AND OPERATING AREA DIMENSIONS
2. ALTITUDE AT WHICH THE OPERATIONS WILL BE
CONDUCTED (NORMALLY NOT TO EXCEED 400 FEET AGL)
3. NUMBER OF MODELS AND OPERATORS.
4. TIME AND DURATION OF ACTIVITY.
5. A METHOD TO DETERMINE WHEN ACTIVITY BEGINS AND ENDS.
6. A REAL TIME CONTACT FOR ANY REQUIRED COMMUNICATIONS.
B. A RECORD OF THE ACTIVITY.
C. LOGGING OPERATIONAL ISSUES THAT RESULT FROM THE ACTIVITIES.

4. WHEN NOTIFIED OF A MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATION, THE ATC MANAGER OR AIRPORT MANAGEMENT MAY DENY OPERATIONS IF THEY IMPACT THE SAFETY OF OTHER OPERATIONS AT THE AIRPORT. SPECIFIC REASONS FOR THE OBJECTION SHOULD BE PROVIDED TO THE PERSON NOTIFYING THE ATCT OR AIRPORT MANAGEMENT AT THE TIME OF THE REQUEST AND DOCUMENTED.

5. FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES, SECTION 336 REQUIRES THAT MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS MUST MEET THE FOLLOWING REQUIRMENTS;
A. THE AIRCRAFT IS FLOWN STRICTLY FOR HOBBY OR RECREATIONAL USE
 B. THE AIRCRAFT IS OPERATED IN ACCORDANCE WITH A COMMUNITY- BASED SET OF SAFETY GUIDELINES AND WITHIN THE PROGRAMMING OF A NATIONWIDE COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION
C. THE AIRCRAFT IS LIMITED TO NOT MORE THAN 55 POUNDS UNLESS OTHERWISE CERTIFIED THROUGH A DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION, INSPECTION, FLIGHT TEST, AND OPERATIONAL SAFETY PROGRAM ADMINISTERED BY A COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION
D. THE AIRCRAFT IS OPERATED IN A MANNER THAT DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH AND GIVES WAY TO ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT.

6. ATC MANAGERS OR AIRPORT MANAGEMENT CONCERNED ABOUT UNSAFE MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS SHOULD CONTACT THE LOCAL FSDO AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT IMMEDIATELY.

7. REQUESTS FOR OPERATIONS OTHER THAN HOBBY OR RECREATIONAL, SHOULD BE REDIRECTED TO THE FAA WEBSITE AT: WWW.FAA.GOV/UAS FOR AUTHORIZATION.

The really important part here is #3. As I tried to explain earlier in this thread, if you intend to fly inside of 5 miles of an airport, the FAA expects you (the modeler) to contact ATC every single time you want to fly. This is made quite clear in section #3.

It also specifically states that the Air Traffic Facility Manager (that's me, btw) is responsible for ensuring that air traffic controllers have info regarding "time and duration of the activity" and "a method to determine when activity begins and ends". That can only be achieved by the modelers contacting the airfield every single time they begin flying and again when they stop.

I just wanted to make this very clear for the guys who have an "agreement" with their airport that does not meet those requirements. As far as the FAA is concerned that is non-compliant. Your airport is "wrong".

Now with that said, my personal thoughts on the topic differ a little. Having looked out the windows of many towers around the world for many years, I can tell you that if a modeler is outside of about 3 miles and below 400ft, someone from inside the tower would be very hard pressed to notice and see a model in flight (probably excluding a 40% plank). IMO, that is also a reasonable safe distance and altitude from full scale fixed wing aircraft. I think that what the airfield doesn't know, won't hurt anyone.

I think we are quite capable of flying safely inside of 5 miles without ATC contact and have proven this for how many years now? Nothing should change, but the "law" has, so watch your p's and q's.

[jbrandt]

I don't really see #3 (above) as an explicit requirement to contact ATC EVERY SINGLE TIME. More of telling the tower when operations typically occur.

But it seems like it gives some latitude to the ATC as far as what they are comfortable with depending on how busy the airport is and the location of RC activity.

[KiloXray]

Originally Posted by jbrandt

If you look at the link you posted, the screen captures say you must contact ATC if operating within 5 miles of an airport.

It doesn't say it's illegal at all.

Even if the concern is having to notify the ATC every time you fly, don't most clubs that fly in this situation have standing permission? No need to contact them every time.

It's called inference. By the app telling you that "Federal Law requires model aircraft operators to notify the airport operator and Air Traffic Control Tower when operating within 5 miles of an airport", it infers that not doing so is, in fact, illegal.

I wasn't trying to say that it was illegal altogether, only that it is illegal to fly there without contacting the airfield and ATC. I guess I should have been more clear.

Did you even read the last post I made? It is plain as day in clear english that you MUST make contact every single time. I don't know how it could be made any clearer.

[KiloXray]

Originally Posted by jbrandt

I don't really see #3 (above) as an explicit requirement to contact ATC EVERY SINGLE TIME. More of telling the tower when operations typically occur.

But it seems like it gives some latitude to the ATC as far as what they are comfortable with depending on how busy the airport is and the location of RC activity.

Interpret it however you like. I'm telling you how I interpret it as an Air Traffic Control facility manager, which is who is charged by the FAA to enforce it. It doesn't really matter what you think, it matters what your local ATC thinks.

[JonJet]

That's the way I read it too...each and every time within a 5 mile radius, regardless of the ATC responses to the contrary

I would just quote the FAA section and verse, and inform them that you want to stay within the regulations to protect yourself each and every time, even though the ATC may consider it a bother

[jbrandt]

Originally Posted by KiloXray

It's called inference. By the app telling you that "Federal Law requires model aircraft operators to notify the airport operator and Air Traffic Control Tower when operating within 5 miles of an airport", it infers that not doing so is, in fact, illegal.

I wasn't trying to say that it was illegal altogether, only that it is illegal to fly there without contacting the airfield and ATC. I guess I should have been more clear.

Did you even read the last post I made? It is plain as day in clear english that you MUST make contact every single time. I don't know how it could be made any clearer.

Actually, no, to be honest I hadn't read thru all the posts, hence the edit(s) I made.

But as ATC, it seems to me like you would want to know when people are flying r/c aircraft near your airport. Pretty sure all the pilots like to know that (speaking as a former pilot).

Sure this app probably needs some tweaks, but anything that helps educate people as to where/when is okay to fly (like all those idiots flying near fire fighting ops) is a good thing.

[sl4ppy]

Easiest way to end the "call every time you fly" rule is to actually do it. The last thing ATC's want is the phone ringing every 2 minutes.

So every RC pilot who is even remotely close to 5 miles of an airport should call that ATC every flight every time and always. Perhaps even an advanced warning call to advise them that you are going to call soon to notify them of a flight. etc. etc.

The more you call, the quicker this insanity will end.

[Nelsonisms]

"Yeah Hi. I was about to let my kid fly his Nano QX in the front yard for 5 minutes. I'm just calling to request clearance."

[rdlohr]

I'd do exactly what my local ATC asked me to do. Let them interpret the guidance however they see fit. I do agree that the intent is each and every time, especially due to these items:

5. A METHOD TO DETERMINE WHEN ACTIVITY BEGINS AND ENDS.
6. A REAL TIME CONTACT FOR ANY REQUIRED COMMUNICATIONS.
B. A RECORD OF THE ACTIVITY.
C. LOGGING OPERATIONAL ISSUES THAT RESULT FROM THE ACTIVITIES.

Rick

[megawhacker]

I have a question for KiloXray.

I checked a sectional chart since this discussion began and counted 17 airports in smallish valley I live in. One is tower controlled. Most are private. Perhaps the tower controlled and one other are public use airports.

The top three industries where I live includes old Californians and we have an abundance of medical facilities which probably includes heliports in addition to the 17 airfields.

I may or may not be within 5 statute miles of the towered airport.

1. What exact point on the airport do I measure the 5 miles from? Control tower? Do I contact local ATC in writing with my lat/long and ask for a determination in writing?

2. What is my obligation to the other 16 non towered and mostly private and unattended air fields shown on my sectional chart? Hospital heliports?

Calling a towered and attended airport every time I step outside with my nano would be quite the nuisance. It would be overwhelming if I have an obligation to an additional seven unattended air fields plus every spot in town with an (H) for heliport painted on a roof or a piece of concrete.

Thank you in advance.

PS. I can figure out for myself common sense. I am not asking for that. I am asking for the official FAA rule following answer.

[KiloXray]

Originally Posted by megawhacker

I have a question for KiloXray.

I checked a sectional chart since this discussion began and counted 17 airports in smallish valley I live in. One is tower controlled. Most are private. Perhaps the tower controlled and one other are public use airports.

The top three industries where I live includes old Californians and we have an abundance of medical facilities which probably includes heliports in addition to the 17 airfields.

I may or may not be within 5 statute miles of the towered airport.

1. What exact point on the airport do I measure the 5 miles from? Control tower? Do I contact local ATC in writing with my lat/long and ask for a determination in writing?

2. What is my obligation to the other 16 non towered and mostly private and unattended air fields shown on my sectional chart? Hospital heliports?

Calling a towered and attended airport every time I step outside with my nano would be quite the nuisance. It would be overwhelming if I have an obligation to an additional seven unattended air fields plus every spot in town with an (H) for heliport painted on a roof or a piece of concrete.

Thank you in advance.

PS. I can figure out for myself common sense. I am not asking for that. I am asking for the official FAA rule following answer.

Well, your situation puts you in a bit of a pickle, IMO. First off, let it be said that what I am about to say is NOT an official FAA answer, it is only my interpretation of what the FAA has issued to me. As evident in this thread, many people will read it how they like and differently.

The way that I read this is that, according to the FAA, you do indeed have a responsibility to make contact with each airport that you are inside of 5 miles from. I also recognize that this is completely unrealistic, and frankly absurd. Why all of a sudden now is this an issue and has never been in the past? Good question.

As for your direct questions:
#1 - This is sort of a muddy question, and will get you several different answers depending on whom you ask. As a starting point on the airport, you could use the GPS coordinates listed in the charts, or the VORTAC (which is likely the same) or even the center of the runway. Most pilots would be using GPS or DME, but you likely don't have that equipment. I think that as long as you just pick a "logical" point and give a good estimate, so that if anyone actually ever asked and you had an answer ready, you would be more than fine.

As for requesting that info from ATC, I would say that that would be highly unlikely. You can ask them, but don't get your hopes up, especially in writing.

#2 - Again, it appears to me that the FAA does expect you to contact any of them within 5 miles. For unattended airfields and helipads, you would still have to contact whoever manages that runway or helipad. Most helipads that are inside the airspace of an ATC tower are still controlled by that tower, which means that most likely the hospital helipads are run by that tower near you and only require a single point of contact to cover several.

Now, do I think that any of this is reasonable? Hell no. All we have here is a change in the way that the FAA is "looking at things". There is no change in full scale operation.

You know as well as I do, that what you have been doing is safe. I am willing to bet you have never come within 2,000ft of a full scale aircraft while flying in your current manner. Do what you think is right is my best advice. I don't think there is intention to seek out and prosecute people who are not obliging. I think they will only use it to burn folks if there was an actual incident. If you have never come close to a full scale, ie...flying in a safe manner, it seems reasonable to me that what you are doing would continue to be safe.

Realistically, I believe that the only reason that the FAA is putting any of this crap out there is to provide documentation so that IF there was an actual incident with a multirotor and a full scale aircraft, and the general public flips out, that they can say "oh no, this is totally the fault of the operator, we already DID DO SOMETHING to keep this from happening". It is simply what they are doing to try and cover their own asses. I think that the FAA doesnt really expect that most people will follow this. They just want to have something "in place", just in case of an incident. The reason I specifically stated multirotor earlier is because the FAA has to recognize that FW and heli models have been a non-issue in this area forever. Multis are the new player that is affecting change.

From what I have seen in the RC model world, especially with fixed wings, is that most people have zero idea about any sort of regulation and pretty much fly wherever they deem "safe". This has obviously been a non-issue since it has never come up in regulatory talks until now.

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by gunny_jeeves

This should be a trip:

I fly mostly at a rogue (non AMA) field that's huge.

It is actually run as a sanctioned flying field for RC Aircraft and they keep a nice grass runway well cut for us. (Run by our county govt.)

Even there, we'd probably be close to an airport of some kind. (Crop dusters mostly)

It'd be interesting to note if that's legal. Technically speaking, both SEFF and Joe Nall are held AT an airport. It's formally closed at Joe Nall, but at SEFF, they announce if Mac Hodges is going to fly in and clear the flight line... (I mean his runway)

Seems like a contradiction.

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by JonJet

Perhaps you need to do your research...because the AMA does not even sanction events held at their own field

Did you attend the event held there recently? It was held at the AMA headquarters field, but the event was IRCHA...not AMA

Clubs and organizations sponsor events...and enforce their own rules, which are created using AMA guidelines

AMA does not sanction or sponsor any fields or events

"AMA does not sanction or sponsor any fields or events"

You're most obviously not an AMA member...LMAO


And it's most obvious that you have never attended any organized AMA sanctioned heli event.

[JonJet]

Originally Posted by EEngineer

"AMA does not sanction or sponsor any fields or events"

You're most obviously not an AMA member...LMAO


And it's most obvious that you have never attended any organized AMA sanctioned heli event.

You are most welcome to contact Paul Kegel...Treasurer of the Valley R/C Flyers for the better part of his R/C career (he owned Paul's Model Shop)

Info comes directly from him

It's much the same as any other governing entity...

Congress makes federal laws, but does not enforce them

State legislative bodies pass laws too...but don't enforce them

I would guess your own city council has passed a law or two...ever seen anyone arrested by a city council member?

AMA provides the guideline to it's club affiliates, who sponsor events

AMA does not sanction or sponsor any event (or any field) in and of itself

[EEngineer]

"Info comes directly from him".


Sorry, but I am an AMA member....and my info comes from the AMA.


You should join the AMA....and the "info" will come directly to you, rather from a 3rd party......


FWIW

[EEngineer]

"AMA does not sanction or sponsor any event (or any field) in and of itself."


In the sanctioned events listed in "Model Aviation", you demonstrate that you are not an AMA member.


Why not join up....and then you will be informed.


Dude, someone's feeding you some malarkey with regards to the AMA.


FWIWgl

[JonJet]

Originally Posted by EEngineer

"AMA does not sanction or sponsor any event (or any field) in and of itself."


In the sanctioned events listed in "Model Aviation", you demonstrate that you are not an AMA member.


Why not join up....and then you will be informed.


Dude, someone's feeding you some malarkey with regards to the AMA.


FWIWgl

Dude...just because you don't understand the sanctioning process doesn't make you any wiser...

The events listed are sanctioned by the sponsoring clubs

Model Aviation lists a "sanctioned events calendar"...NOT an AMA sanctioned events calendar

You don't buy a ticket to a Dallas Cowboys game from the NFL...

You buy it from the Dallas Cowboys...and the Dallas Cowboys are a member team of the NFL, and follow NFL's rules, and the NFL monitors every NFL game

If the AMA sanctioned every event, they would need to have reps there to enforce the AMA rules...which they don't

Have you ever seen or heard of anyone accused of an AMA rule infraction at an event, or fined by the AMA?

The NFL does it all the time, because they take the responsibility to ensure that the game is played to specific rules

And I am an AMA Member...get your facts straight