Breakthrough!! Flymentor w/ FBL

[bionicbone]

Originally Posted by salience

so will soon be doing a few quickie up and downs to test stability before I fly out over the ravine...

Salience - Did you manage to do the test?

I've been working on the same thing and last night just sorted what I think was my last issue - FM servo setting was not set at 1 servo option. All now seems to be working as expected on the bench.

Wish I'd found this thread first, it would have saved a lot of frustration trying to get that swash moving correctly.

One tip I noticed was that the FM was trying to self level the ELEV channel in the wrong direction. The fix was to reverse the servo in the FM programming. But this made the ZYX software show the ELEV channel in the monitor to be moving the wrong way (not following the stick). Reversing the channel at the TX now solves this and still allows the FM to level correctly. I guess in other words, get the FM leveling working first, then check the ZYX monitor as reverse the stick in the TX as necessary.

Kev

[jolyboy]

I recommend you try getting the zyx working seperately (FM unplugged) and fine tune it. Then add FM pitch, elevator and aileron one by one, testing and reversing FM stick/servos as you go.

Its much simpler this way, because you'll know the TX and zyx are set correctly. Then it'll just be a matter of tweaking the stick/servo reversing in FM.

Whatever works for you, but perhaps this method will streamline the process.

Joly

Sent from my GT-S5570 using Tapatalk 2

[salience]

Originally Posted by bionicbone

Salience - Did you manage to do the test?

I've been working on the same thing and last night just sorted what I think was my last issue - FM servo setting was not set at 1 servo option. All now seems to be working as expected on the bench.

Wish I'd found this thread first, it would have saved a lot of frustration trying to get that swash moving correctly.

One tip I noticed was that the FM was trying to self level the ELEV channel in the wrong direction. The fix was to reverse the servo in the FM programming. But this made the ZYX software show the ELEV channel in the monitor to be moving the wrong way (not following the stick). Reversing the channel at the TX now solves this and still allows the FM to level correctly. I guess in other words, get the FM leveling working first, then check the ZYX monitor as reverse the stick in the TX as necessary.

Kev

Salut Kev,
I had just about the same problem with reverses and wrong ways when I set up FM first. That's what convinced me to start with ZYX, get everything centered and moving right, then stick the FM in the middle and tweak that so ZYX was still doing what it is supposed to.

I went back and did some more tweaks, since Ivor has stated that FM does not like trims and subtrims set in the Tx. The ZYX setup has you adjusting subtrims to get the bars in the stick page at neutral. This I did, as noted in my rather long setup post. But yesterday I decided it would be better to zero those Tx subtrims, and then adjust servo travels in FM to duplicate what the subtrims did before. This worked out fine, and I think I'm now ready for a few quickie up-and-downs, as soon as I finish messing 'roun with my 450FBL/AR7200BX, repaired after sticking the tail in the ground and snapping a carbo boom in 3 pieces! (that's not ALL that happened, check out Scorpion Motor Question thread.)
best regards,
peter

[Ivor Hill]

The TX, FM and FBL controller all have mixers and if you try to use more than one of them you will have conflict so 2 of them must be dissabled.
Setting the TX and FM to 1 servo dissables there mixers so only the FBL mixer is operating. Hope this helps.

[bionicbone]

Originally Posted by salience

Salut Kev,
I had just about the same problem with reverses and wrong ways when I set up FM first. That's what convinced me to start with ZYX, get everything centered and moving right, then stick the FM in the middle and tweak that so ZYX was still doing what it is supposed to.

I went back and did some more tweaks, since Ivor has stated that FM does not like trims and subtrims set in the Tx. The ZYX setup has you adjusting subtrims to get the bars in the stick page at neutral. This I did, as noted in my rather long setup post. But yesterday I decided it would be better to zero those Tx subtrims, and then adjust servo travels in FM to duplicate what the subtrims did before. This worked out fine, and I think I'm now ready for a few quickie up-and-downs, as soon as I finish messing 'roun with my 450FBL/AR7200BX, repaired after sticking the tail in the ground and snapping a carbo boom in 3 pieces! (that's not ALL that happened, check out Scorpion Motor Question thread.)
best regards,
peter

I did both I guess, set up the FM and after a good 150 ish flights disconnected it, then setup the ZYX and gave that a good test fly. Agreeing with your thoughts I've used the ZYX as the master and all I have to do was make sure adding the FM keeps the swash running basically the same.

Your are definitely correct about sub trims, FM really does not like Tx sub trims.

My radio is simply 0's and 100%'s except for the Expo which ended at 20% for the ZYX, and with 1 servo on both Tx and FM, from memory its the same in the FM now (i.e. I put Servo Neutrals to 0 in FM).

The good news for me is that I'm using a Dx8 which means I have a switch that allows me to switch the FM off, my setting are trying to get the same movement of the swash for any given input the same whether FM is on or off. If I get that then the FM should only be centering.

I should be taking off on Saturday morning all being well.

I'll check out the Scorpion thread.

Kev

[salience]

Originally Posted by bionicbone

The good news for me is that I'm using a Dx8 which means I have a switch that allows me to switch the FM off,
Kev

I do it with a DX7S - use the 3-way GYRO switch and if you need another switch for the gyro on the gear channel use a D/R - only 2 settings but that's enough for me. I also swapped places - interchanged the GYRO switch and the D/R switch so the 3-way is at the top left corner of the Tx - more readily available.

[bionicbone]

Originally Posted by salience

I do it with a DX7S - use the 3-way GYRO switch and if you need another switch for the gyro on the gear channel use a D/R - only 2 settings but that's enough for me. I also swapped places - interchanged the GYRO switch and the D/R switch so the 3-way is at the top left corner of the Tx - more readily available.

Yeah, I'm actually only using 7 channel (in fact an Orange 7ch Rx).

I'm interested in more info in what you are writing above. I'd love to see the screen shots of your settings so I can see what you have done.

Someone once sent me a screen shot for the DX6i to use mixing so you could switch off the FM unit, to be honest I never really got it but it works LOL

Kev

[bionicbone]

Well she left the ground and was fine first time, still need a little tuning though. I have this weird leaning back after a half piro thing going off (ok after full), very strange as CG seems OK.
There was a "Piro" setting in the ZYX software, I may try reversing that. Does anyone know what actually happens if that is set wrong?

Kev

[salience]

Originally Posted by bionicbone

Yeah, I'm actually only using 7 channel (in fact an Orange 7ch Rx).

I'm interested in more info in what you are writing above. I'd love to see the screen shots of your settings so I can see what you have done.

Someone once sent me a screen shot for the DX6i to use mixing so you could switch off the FM unit, to be honest I never really got it but it works LOL

Kev

In the model setup windows > switch select > set GYRO switch to AUX2.
In the settings for the model, set an otherwise unused 2-way switch for the Gyro on gear channel. I used a D/R switch since I never switch to just one D/R and have all 3 set on the flight mode switch.
Go to the Servo Menu and set travel for AUX2 to your desired gains for FM, positive (or right side) side for Position mode, left or negative side for horizontal mode. Now your Gyro 3-way switch will be position 0 = position mode, position 1 (center) = FM OFF, and position 2 = horizontal mode.

I did some mods with the DX7S switches to make them more convenient. I have the Tx set for mode 3 - sticks and some switches exactly opposite to mode 2, so you will have to bear that in mind.

see the photo:
First, I interchanged the 3-way Gyro switch with the Ele D/R switch so the 3-way is easily accessible at the corner. Then I duplicated the function of position 2 of the 3-way with a DPST momentary switch mounted just behind - you flip it forward and you go instantly from either position mode or FM OFF to horizontal mode, depending on which way the 3-way is - at pos0 or 1. Letting the switch go you return to the former setting, since it is a spring-loaded switch. So I have my left index finger hovering there between the momentary and the HOLD switch, easy to find either in a hurry. (I'm afraid my flying skills still require that "hurry mode"!) The momentary is handy if you are flying with FM OFF and want to quickly go to horizontal mode, without touching the 3-way switch. Actually, I did all this mainly for my as yet uncompleted 600FBL w/ HC3-SX, the momentary switch will give you instant bailout mode no matter where the 3-way is set, the same way most people set up the trainer button in a DX8 using mixing.

[bionicbone]

Well everything was going well until I crashed.

The KDS was holding good either normally or inverted.

Suddenly after coming out of a flip she suddenly plunged off to the side and headed for the ground.

I'll point out that I don't think it was an issue with the FM > ZYX setup because I was 1 min into the 4th proper flight that had done many flips etc.

After the crash and on the bench two of the Turnigy MG958 servos had issues
Servo 1: the upper case has a notch where one of the spinals fits, this had broken off and was lodge in the servo gears to cause a full stall.
Servo 2: the horn had slipped fully negative meaning neutral position was fully negative.

OK, both these issues could have been caused in the crash but personally I'd go for Servo 2 happened in the air.

I will continue with this once I have re-built the heli at the weekend.

Kev

[pril250]

You should also consider that FM can get 'confused' as to its artificial horizon when coming out of fast manoeuvres and changes of attitude, the precise reason it is not recommended as a 'bail out' system. That is also why 3D is not recommended with FM active, it is purely a training tool for hover & circuits.

[bionicbone]

Originally Posted by pril250

You should also consider that FM can get 'confused' as to its artificial horizon when coming out of fast manoeuvres and changes of attitude, the precise reason it is not recommended as a 'bail out' system. That is also why 3D is not recommended with FM active, it is purely a training tool for hover & circuits.

I understand what you are saying and generally agree. However, I always use balance mode not position mode and on my Trex 600 actually don't have the CCD connected to eliminate that issue and I was only giving this set up some stick to test it.

With the way I fly I'm happy with the FM, I tend to flip over and stay. That said, FM can be a pain if you let go and the blades are near vertical, in this case you are never sure which way it will go and ultimately that can cause a crash - thus the reason its not for 3D applications.

Kev

[pril250]

I hear what you are saying but the shortcomings apply both to position and balance mode since it is the way the gyros are working especially since they are of the Piezzo slow reacting type.

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by pril250

I hear what you are saying but the shortcomings apply both to position and balance mode since it is the way the gyros are working especially since they are of the Piezzo slow reacting type.

Well said, add to this the slow processor time and the performance is seriously limited. But it works great for what it was intended for. A beginners training platform. Any aggressive flying is beyond its design parameters, and it should be disabled when using the heli as such.

[bionicbone]

Originally Posted by bionicbone

Well everything was going well until I crashed.

The KDS was holding good either normally or inverted.

Suddenly after coming out of a flip she suddenly plunged off to the side and headed for the ground.

I'll point out that I don't think it was an issue with the FM > ZYX setup because I was 1 min into the 4th proper flight that had done many flips etc.

After the crash and on the bench two of the Turnigy MG958 servos had issues
Servo 1: the upper case has a notch where one of the spinals fits, this had broken off and was lodge in the servo gears to cause a full stall.
Servo 2: the horn had slipped fully negative meaning neutral position was fully negative.

OK, both these issues could have been caused in the crash but personally I'd go for Servo 2 happened in the air.

I will continue with this once I have re-built the heli at the weekend.

Kev

I have also notice during the rebuild and set up that Ch2 sub trim setting in the ZYX was different to that set previously. i.e. I set it to -2, its now reading 58. This is a huge difference in where the servo neutral position is and to make the swash level.

This said, i guess i must contemplate that the servo arm could have been on a couple of splines off center, but would I have been happy with a sub trim setting as high as 58 without questioning it - i don't thing so. I think I need to watch this.

Kev

[bionicbone]

Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis

Well said, add to this the slow processor time and the performance is seriously limited. But it works great for what it was intended for. A beginners training platform. Any aggressive flying is beyond its design parameters, and it should be disabled when using the heli as such.

It'll be alright on my heli then, it seems the only time mine goes aggressive is when its out of control

You're absolutely right, its has a place and its not as a 3D aid, but it does hold a good inverted

Kev

[autosonline2002]

Sorry to jump in & Im happy with the FM on my heli so far. BUT! As mentioned above, the FM is not designed for anything behind normal hovering or flying & kind of difficult to pair with the FBL unit. Until I C this iKON FBL from helidirect, it has the capability of auto leveling & 3D maneuver. Not very $$ compare with the Vbar, beastX or other FBL unit. Is it reli good & worth the $$? Anyone tried that?

[alchemy66]

Originally Posted by autosonline2002

Sorry to jump in & Im happy with the FM on my heli so far. BUT! As mentioned above, the FM is not designed for anything behind normal hovering or flying & kind of difficult to pair with the FBL unit. Until I C this iKON FBL from helidirect, it has the capability of auto leveling & 3D maneuver. Not very $$ compare with the Vbar, beastX or other FBL unit. Is it reli good & worth the $$? Anyone tried that?

Looks like it's based on the MSH BRain - same company I think. Looks good but it's brand new, I'd want to see it in action and have some forum chat from owners before I'd buy it.

[jolyboy]

I have the msh brain.. all I can say its its a great FBL controller but don't get your hopes up for self levelling, it drifts severely.

Sent from my GT-S5570 using Tapatalk 2

[.Superfly.]

Hello everybody! Please excuse me, but I really cannot understand. Why do you need to use a specific ZYX unit AND also a KDS mentor? I would like to use a KDS mentor only, don't you think that it should do the job since it is a 3 axis gyro anyway?
Can you please make me understand? What is missing in the KDS mentor unit so to use it INSTEAD of a ZYX unit?
Thank you for your tolerance, I admit to be a beginner but this query I really couldn't solve it on my own...