600e Pro Tail Blow Outs

[OnTheSnap]

This thread needs to be a sticky in the 600e Pro sub forum.

The new Pro has a reduced tail gear ratio compared to other 600 class machines. The typical ratio is 4.5. The 600 Pro uses 3.85. This is a 15% reduction in tail thrust.

Standard "hard 3D" headspeeds of 2200-2250 does not produce enough tail holding power for basic 3D maneuvers and you can see tail blowouts during basic maneuvers like tic tocs.

The solution is to run 105mm tail blades (disc area increase of 14%) to compensate for the change.

The stock low profile landing gear will not provide sufficient clearance. The recommendation is to use the 700e/550e stock gear in the rear to angle the tail up (boom rake).

As far as reliability is concerned there is no data yet. But the Align test pilots (Alan S) apparently runs his machine at 2500+ headspeed, which is 15% higher then the accepted hard 3D headspeeds for a 600 class machine. No wonder he thinks the tail holds with 95mm blades!

Take extreme caution if you choose to fly hard with 95mm blades at "sane" headspeeds. I put my machine in hard due to a very bad tail blow out at 2200 RPM with 95mm tail blades while I was "smacking" close to the ground.

105mm provides great tail authority and the expected tail performance for this class machine.

[ccjohn98]

I have been fly and confirmed with Align that normal 3D flight with the original factory packing (including Castle ICE 80 ESC and 95 tail blade), running the headspeed at 2200 with both collective pitch and cyclic pitch at 13 degree would give it a great without any problem on its tail and fly just like having the same power as nitro machine .

Some of my friends like to do powerful 3D flight, they run the headspeed at 2350 to 2400 and even 2500 and tail can still keep smoothly and no vibration. They fly really crazy!

[OnTheSnap]

Sorry, this just can't be true. Please shoot a video of you doing fast collective reversals at 2200 rpm. Your tail will break free 90 degrees.

Align needs to explain the logic behind reducing the tail gear ratio on the 600 pro and now the 550 3gx. If you have access to them please find out what's going on, and get them on this forum.

Originally Posted by ccjohn98

I have been fly and confirmed with Align that normal 3D flight with the original factory packing (including Castle ICE 80 ESC and 95 tail blade), running the headspeed at 2200 with both collective pitch and cyclic pitch at 13 degree would give it a great without any problem on its tail and fly just like having the same power as nitro machine .

Some of my friends like to do powerful 3D flight, they run the headspeed at 2350 to 2400 and even 2500 and tail can still keep smoothly and no vibration. They fly really crazy!

[ccjohn98]

I am wondering why you are keep saying the original kit have problem. Do you have anything to prove that Trex 600E PRO has the problem like you said?

Anywyas, when I have time, I will do a video to show you or simply pass this to Align and see if they can create a video on this.

[ollie2893]

Interesting, Snap. Did you look at where the different translation ratio originates? If at the front, would the autorotation gearset of the 600e perhaps fit? If at the rear, can you use the 600e tail case?

[TdB]

A tail ratio of 3.85!!! Did they completely lost their mind?!?!?!
Align helicopter always had low numbers, but this is just ridiculous!

+1 for the topic starter!!

This should be a sticky!!

Tim

[raptor50luvver]

I agree I am having nothing but trouble with the tail on my 600e pro with blowing out all my other align helix are brilliant,would also like an explanation from Align on this and ideally a revised or optional gearset to give a higher tail speed.

If they can't sort this I will simply sell the airframe and get one that runs properly at a sensible headspeed,there are Plenty of options out there.

I used go run a logo 600 on the same 3300 packs I am using on the 600 pro,the logo ran great at 2100 rpm and managed over 5 mins of 3d, my 600 pro manages 4 mins at the stupid headdpeed Align suggest.

So another Logo 600 may be on the cards for me soon if Align don't sort this.

[toms]

I have had my tail blow out also with my 600 pro with the 3gx and also the beastx.I am now running 105mm tail blades seems to be good so far only 5 flights with 105s.I am running 2300 headspeed and was at 2200.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by ccjohn98

I am wondering why you are keep saying the original kit have problem. Do you have anything to prove that Trex 600E PRO has the problem like you said?

Anywyas, when I have time, I will do a video to show you or simply pass this to Align and see if they can create a video on this.

There is nothing to prove. The posted specs show a tail gear ratio of 3.85. The new auto gear is mod .8 and 131T. The new tail drive gear is 34T. 131/34 = 3.85

Every 600 I can find specs on is near 4.5 including the old ESP, Fusion50, Furion6, Logo, etc. So the Pro produces 15% less tail thrust at a given headspeed vs all other 600's. In practice 15% was a lot for my style of flying, and it caused me a very bad crash.

It seems Align thinks all Pro owners should run 100% flat which is 2500 RPM! This is insane just to get basic 3D tail performance.

105mm Tsil blades puts the Pro's tail thrust back in line with other models in this class.

Originally Posted by ollie2893

Interesting, Snap. Did you look at where the different translation ratio originates? If at the front, would the autorotation gearset of the 600e perhaps fit? If at the rear, can you use the 600e tail case?

PS: Incidentally, I note that the 131T 0.8M main spur from the Pro is supposedly compatible with my 600e main gear case? What pinions can I get for that spur? There are virtually no parts listed for the Pro with any of the stockists typically use. What pinions does Align ship with the Pro? I'd like 12T 0.8M 6mm...

The new one way bearing case is deeper now that they added a radial bearing. So the old auto gear does not fit. The change happened with the new auto gear and tail drive gear. They dropped the ratio to 3.85 from a healthy 4.5 on the ESP.

Originally Posted by toms

I have had my tail blow out also with my 600 pro with the 3gx and also the beastx.I am now running 105mm tail blades seems to be good so far only 5 flights with 105s.I am running 2300 headspeed and was at 2200.

No need to run 2300 with 105's. 2000-2250 all held really well for me.

[raptor50luvver]

So can someone from Align enlighten us with the idea of reducing the tail power on what's supposed to be a top end 3d performer?

Every other hv 600 class electric can produce stunning performance and decent duration at sensible headspeeds so who's smart idea was it to run a ridiculous headspeed and give short flight times compared to other brands of airframe.

[whittb]

12s power systems produce a large amount of torque compared to the older 6S systems. I wander if the reduction in tail gear is an attempt to save the torque tube gears from striping out during flight. There are other 12s helis that have been known to destroy torque tube umbrella gears in 3D flight. I think the cost of upgrading the materials used in the plastic gears might have been too much for the average heli owner to absorb.

Just my 2 cents. I fly very mild so the chances of me having to deal with this problem are very slim. I am however already ordering 105mm tail blades and a 700 tail stabilizer just to make sure. I already have the 600 ESP landing skids to raise the heli up a small amount.

[ollie2893]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

The new one way bearing case is deeper now that they added a radial bearing. So the old auto gear does not fit.

Actually, I just started a new thread on this subject (https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=316007) before I saw your entry so I can guess the responses. So turning my idea on its head in answer to your problem, on the Pro you could use the old auto rotation gear set together with old main gear case, the KDE adaptor and the new Pro spur to get back to the higher tail ratio.

[teshreve]

And while the sticky button is handy, unstick most of other ancient threads up there, some of which are fully redundant.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by ollie2893

Actually, I just started a new thread on this subject (https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=316007) before I saw your entry so I can guess the responses. So turning my idea on its head in answer to your problem, on the Pro you could use the old auto rotation gear set together with old main gear case, the KDE adaptor and the new Pro spur to get back to the higher tail ratio.

This seems possible, but I don't really want to run the old OWB (one way bearing) since it locks up on me often. The new OWB added in a top radial bearing that prevents lock ups, so my strong preference is to stick with it. Also the new auto gear is mod .8 which is seemingly more robust.

So it seems the best option is to just throw on 105mm tail blades and be happy.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by whittb

12s power systems produce a large amount of torque compared to the older 6S systems. I wander if the reduction in tail gear is an attempt to save the torque tube gears from striping out during flight. There are other 12s helis that have been known to destroy torque tube umbrella gears in 3D flight. I think the cost of upgrading the materials used in the plastic gears might have been too much for the average heli owner to absorb.

Just my 2 cents. I fly very mild so the chances of me having to deal with this problem are very slim. I am however already ordering 105mm tail blades and a 700 tail stabilizer just to make sure. I already have the 600 ESP landing skids to raise the heli up a small amount.

What seems to contradict this theory is that all the testing by Alan Szabo and friends was at 2500-2700 RPM on the head. So the actual tail thrust (force on the umbrella/tail gears) is exactly same as running 105mm at 2200 RPM.

Honestly my biggest concern now is will the umbrella gears last 100 flights without a failure? I owned a 600ESP 18 months ago that I converted to 12s. Just beating on it a little bit I would blow out the front torque tube umbrella gears. Many factors can impact this including how well the umbrella gears are meshed in the front boom block.

The 600 Pro umbrella gears are unchanged from teh 600ESP and 600n design. Size and material appear to be the same. So long term we all need to see that these are not a failure point for hard flying pilots.

[NRPY]

Dang, I just ordered one of those new OWB cases for my 600 ESP thinking it would work. From what you've said, it won't work as it's intended for the new 600 Pro.

I wish GrandRC was a little more clear in their product descriptions, instead of just listing all 600 parts as 600e.

[ollie2893]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

This seems possible, but I don't really want to run the old OWB (one way bearing) since it locks up on me often.

Yeah - I went through a spell of that and, without proper explanation (other than ample lube, perhaps), the problem went away and hasn't been back since.

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

the new auto gear is mod .8 which is seemingly more robust.

Possibly, though in dozens of crashes I am yet to lose a single tooth from the old auto rotation gear.

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

So it seems the best option is to just throw on 105mm tail blades and be happy.

Seems you found a satisfactory solution - good

[Dflyer]

Crap,

the big shot pilots are testpilots for Align, and then they only test the kits on their level of flying, great job Align

It's a pitty that all the regular pilots are again used as beta-testers, same story again. Hopefully Align is going to sort this quick for you guys.

Grtz,
Dirk

[felborn]

Originally Posted by Dflyer

Crap,

the big shot pilots are testpilots for Align, and then they only test the kits on their level of flying, great job Align

It's a pitty that all the regular pilots are again used as beta-testers, same story again. Hopefully Align is going to sort this quick for you guys.

Grtz,
Dirk

If this is sorted simply by using a pair for 105mm tailblades, I dont see the big problem. I'm following all the feedback closely, and alot of very helpfull information has been posted. I dont see the need for drama as the post above just yet.

[ccjohn98]

here for the video that Align provided. They have also post this video on their facebook.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqvhGiiC53c[/ame]

This model in the video is clearly showing from how it set up and fly with the 2200 headspeed and 95mm tailblades. Looks there is no problem on its tail and still able to do hard 3Ds.

Accounting to what Align told, people who have the problem on the tail should check if the tail is at the neutral point and also the batteries you use.

Personally I believe a company like Align should have tested everything that including in the package and make sure everything work to each other. So I never put other brand's spare parts on my Trex. Who knows if they are working on my Trex or not.