Which Kontronik for X5 Formula

[MKMAERO]

Based on all the positive comments here in the X5 forum, I decided to give the Gaui X5 Formula a try. I have an option regarding the ESC. I can use either a Kontronik Jive Pro 120HV or the Jive 100LV. The Jive Pro has a more robust BEC (8A continuous/20A peak) but weighs 140 grams while the 100LV has a 5A continuous BEC and weighs only 92 grams. I'll be using full size BK brushless servos. Might anyone have a recommendation one way or the other?

Mike

[fretman]

I know one thing, that 5a bec will get you in trouble. If you're buying a new esc hobbywing 100a v3 is a nice compact one with a robust bec.

[john2kx]

Mike

Have been flying the 100A LV Jive in mine close to 3 years feeding stock gaui servos. Bulletproof is all I can say.

[blade450]

Ran my X5 on a 100 lv jive for quite some time. Even with Align servo's the BEC did work perfectly, although officially you should have an extra battery pack for it as recommended by Kontronik.

120 amps is overkill for an X5.

[newbheliusr]

I'd say that depends on your motor of choice

[john2kx]

Kontronics recommends a separate bec battery supply when running higher than 5.6 volts. The bec is rated at 5 amps continuos/15 amp max. It also runs power from bec to rx via 2 separate wires (spreading the load).

[fretman]

I stand corrected, I guess not all 5a bec's are alike.

[MKMAERO]

I appreciate everyone's insight. My background is many decades of pattern flying where aircraft weight is always something to be minimized for best performance. The Jive 120 Pro has a more robust BEC and can handle more flight current but it's heavier than the 100LV. I normally would opt for the lightest ESC that will provide reliable performance with good electrical headroom. I'm using BK BLS8002HV servos on cyclic and a Futaba BLS 276SV on the tail. My motor is an Xnova 4020/2Y 1000KV.

Mike

[john2kx]

Mike,

So, you are considering using the 100LV with HV servos? I'm at a similar junction on a R5 build using a jive 120 (previous design with 6V max out of BEC) but thought HV servos needed more than 6 volts for optimum performance.

[MKMAERO]

Originally Posted by john2kx

Mike,

So, you are considering using the 100LV with HV servos? I'm at a similar junction on a R5 build using a jive 120 (previous design with 6V max out of BEC) but thought HV servos needed more than 6 volts for optimum performance.

Dang it.......I hate it when I overlook the obvious. Yes.....I am using high voltage servos and should have realized that the 100LV BEC only ouputs up to 6 volts. That answers my question and I'll be using the Jive 120 Pro in the X5. I currently have a mix of Kontronik ESCs in my fleet. I have two 500 size helis using older servos and run the Jive 80HV ESCs at 5.6 volts with a 4 cell Eneloop NiMH pack in parallel with the BEC. My SAB G570, G700 and Trex 700 electronics are all running on 8 volts with a 2S lipo in parallel with the BEC. I'll run the Jive 120 in the Gaui X5 at 8 volts with a 2S lipo backing up the BEC. Sorry for the senior moment regarding the Jive BEC output.

Mike

[john2kx]

Mike,

With the experience I have had with the Jives, I feel completely comfortable depending on their internal bec's, especially on a 500 size heli. It definitely provides a cleaner wiring setup, while not having a external battery to mount, maintain and remember to charge, in addition to the extra weight. I am at about 800 flights on my x5 in 3 years, while powered with the 100LV and not one issue to date...and I have done lots of speed runs.

When I feel the need for a back up battery supply to bec, I have recently gone with the optiguard. Lighter than a typical 2S LiPo and it charges itself as needed from the main flight pack. Works great on my 12' glider that I run on 6, 7 and 8S up to 6200 watts and 230 amps. Using Jeti telemetry, I have been able to monitor just about every data point imaginable without having any issues with regard to power supply to rx, or bec amp spikes under load while feeding 8 servos at speeds of 150-230 mph. I plan to use the optiguard on my R5 as well.

I'm no expert with this electric stuff and have only switched to it about 3 years ago. Still feel like there is so much to learn. My issues (the first year or so) have been with bad solder joints that have caused at least 3 forced landings. The first resulted in damage to my heli since I had no redundant rx power. That was the beginning of me using the scorpion bug and or optiguard in everything that I fly. Soldering skills have since improved and have not had those rear their ugly heads anymore...but I still will run some type of redundant battery supply to rx in anything serious (spelled: that I have a lot of money in)

Good luck with that 120 pro in your x5. Overkill for sure, but the way to go.

John

[MKMAERO]

Originally Posted by john2kx

Mike,

With the experience I have had with the Jives, I feel completely comfortable depending on their internal bec's, especially on a 500 size heli. It definitely provides a cleaner wiring setup, while not having a external battery to mount, maintain and remember to charge, in addition to the extra weight. I am at about 800 flights on my x5 in 3 years, while powered with the 100LV and not one issue to date...and I have done lots of speed runs.

When I feel the need for a back up battery supply to bec, I have recently gone with the optiguard. Lighter than a typical 2S LiPo and it charges itself as needed from the main flight pack. Works great on my 12' glider that I run on 6, 7 and 8S up to 6200 watts and 230 amps. Using Jeti telemetry, I have been able to monitor just about every data point imaginable without having any issues with regard to power supply to rx, or bec amp spikes under load while feeding 8 servos at speeds of 150-230 mph. I plan to use the optiguard on my R5 as well.

I'm no expert with this electric stuff and have only switched to it about 3 years ago. Still feel like there is so much to learn. My issues (the first year or so) have been with bad solder joints that have caused at least 3 forced landings. The first resulted in damage to my heli since I had no redundant rx power. That was the beginning of me using the scorpion bug and or optiguard in everything that I fly. Soldering skills have since improved and have not had those rear their ugly heads anymore...but I still will run some type of redundant battery supply to rx in anything serious (spelled: that I have a lot of money in)

Good luck with that 120 pro in your x5. Overkill for sure, but the way to go.

John

Hi John. Thanks for your reply. Thus far, I have acquired 6 Kontronik ESCs: a Jive 80HV, a Jive 80 Pro, 2 Jive 120 Pros, a Kosmik 160 and a Kosmik 200 Cool. Some feel Kontronik ESCs are overpriced and perhaps they are; however, I've enjoyed the ease of programming, their excellent reliability and the solid governor. I tend to be conservative in my approach to R/C so while many feel the Kontronik BECs are very reliable, I do use a backup battery pack in parallel with the BEC in every case (4 Nimh Eneloop cells for low voltage servos or a small 2S lipo for HV servos). I do have a question for you. I've noted that some folks using Kontronik ESCs use the Optiguard. Do you use the Optiguard with Kontronik Jives or Kosmiks? The reason I ask is the Jive and Kosmik ESCs are designed to be run with a backup battery in parallel with the BEC and require no intervening electronics. The BEC keeps the battery charged from the flight pack. I have never understood why some use an electronic backup device with the Jive or Kosmik when a simple small lipo or Nimh pack can be placed in parallel with the BEC output and be on line 100% of the time and automatically charged by the ESC. It just couldn't be any simpler but perhaps I'm missing something.

Mike

[john2kx]

Mike,

You have far more kontronics experience than I do. To date, I have only operated one 100LV without any form of back up to the bec.

All of my backup bec experience has been applied while using Jeti Mezon ESCS. Since these are fairly new to market, I added either scorpion bug or optiguard for insurance. All my servos are 4.8-6.0 volt.

I did not understand using your method would eliminate the need for charging the backup battery.

The only advantage I see while using the backup guard is that you eliminate the chance of operator error in the event it does not get plugged in every flight. And, using a Jeti Tx I have a low voltage alarm set .5 volt less than my bec operating limit which announces verbally that my bec has dropped below 6 volts and the optiguard has kicked in.

There is much discussion about back feed to the bec while using the kontronics and optiguard has come out with a back feed preventer. To be honest, I quit reading at this point...just too many opinions and to many posts for my brain to digest.

I'm not 100% sure how I will address a back up for my Jive 120 / R5 build. That machine will be here in a few days and some decisions need to be made.

Glad you brought this subject up. Just when I thought I had this area of electronics figured out, another way of doing things pops up.

John

[MKMAERO]

John: The Jive and Kosmik ESCs are designed such that you can place a backup battery in parallel with the BEC output without causing any damage to the BEC. I'm not aware of any other ESCs that are designed that way. In fact, the owner's manual for the Jive and Kosmik strongly recommend you use the backup battery in parallel with the BEC. For example, you can set the output of the BEC to 8 volts, charge a 2S lipo to 8.4 volts, and then place the lipo in parallel with BEC. The heli will utilize the lipo initially until it runs down to 8.0 volts and then the BEC will take over. The BEC will keep the backup lipo charged to 8 volts. Some have said you can damage the BEC by placing an 8.4 volts lipo in parallel with the BEC that's set to 8 volts. I contacted Kontronik directly with that question and they said it is perfectly OK to do that.....it won't harm the ESC. It's basically the same for low voltage operation except you would use something other than a 2S lipo. For example, on my two 500 size helis, I set the ESC output to 5.6 volts and use an Eneloop Nimh pack as a backup. The Eneloop nickle metal battery is a relatively recent development. It holds its voltage over a long period of time much like a lipo. I connect my backup battery to my gyro via a heavy duty Futaba receiver switch so I can switch it on and off. First I boot the system with the flight lipo pack and once the system is ready for flight, I switch on the backup battery. The Jive and Kosmik ESCs have dual power outputs. I connect the Master output directly to my Futaba S-Bus receiver (channel 3 which is throttle). I do not use gyro governors. I use the governor in the Kontronik ESC and control it directly from the Futaba receiver......not via the gyro. The slave output of the Kontronik ESC goes to the gyro. I of course have one cable with signal and power going from the S-Bus receiver to the gyro. So, as you can see, there is lots of power pathways to and from the electronics: ESC to receiver, ESC to gyro, receiver to gyro, and finally, backup battery to gyro. This configuration has worked well for me for a number of years.

Mike

[john2kx]

Mike,

Again, thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. Has me questioning the use of 6V servos and the 120 Jive in my new R5 build. The 160 kosmic cool HV may just be my next purchase.

[helirifick]

Hi, great information on your setups with Jives + backup batts.

Was wondering if you can post a wiring diagram.

Also, I was under the impression that 4.8 V NiMH or 2S LiPO backup packs were wired to the Jives' BEC slave output with a Y-cable/connector:

input to the Y are Jive slave BEC cable, backup pack; output from the Y is single wire that goes to the FBL's empty/or-not connection port for extra power.

You can also place a switch on the single output wire from the Y that is going to the FBL's port for convenience.

Is this how your setup is configured?

thanks

Originally Posted by MKMAERO

John: The Jive and Kosmik ESCs are designed such that you can place a backup battery in parallel with the BEC output without causing any damage to the BEC. I'm not aware of any other ESCs that are designed that way. In fact, the owner's manual for the Jive and Kosmik strongly recommend you use the backup battery in parallel with the BEC. For example, you can set the output of the BEC to 8 volts, charge a 2S lipo to 8.4 volts, and then place the lipo in parallel with BEC. The heli will utilize the lipo initially until it runs down to 8.0 volts and then the BEC will take over. The BEC will keep the backup lipo charged to 8 volts. Some have said you can damage the BEC by placing an 8.4 volts lipo in parallel with the BEC that's set to 8 volts. I contacted Kontronik directly with that question and they said it is perfectly OK to do that.....it won't harm the ESC. It's basically the same for low voltage operation except you would use something other than a 2S lipo. For example, on my two 500 size helis, I set the ESC output to 5.6 volts and use an Eneloop Nimh pack as a backup. The Eneloop nickle metal battery is a relatively recent development. It holds its voltage over a long period of time much like a lipo. I connect my backup battery to my gyro via a heavy duty Futaba receiver switch so I can switch it on and off. First I boot the system with the flight lipo pack and once the system is ready for flight, I switch on the backup battery. The Jive and Kosmik ESCs have dual power outputs. I connect the Master output directly to my Futaba S-Bus receiver (channel 3 which is throttle). I do not use gyro governors. I use the governor in the Kontronik ESC and control it directly from the Futaba receiver......not via the gyro. The slave output of the Kontronik ESC goes to the gyro. I of course have one cable with signal and power going from the S-Bus receiver to the gyro. So, as you can see, there is lots of power pathways to and from the electronics: ESC to receiver, ESC to gyro, receiver to gyro, and finally, backup battery to gyro. This configuration has worked well for me for a number of years.

Mike

[MKMAERO]

Originally Posted by helirifick

Hi, great information on your setups with Jives + backup batts.

Was wondering if you can post a wiring diagram.

Also, I was under the impression that 4.8 V NiMH or 2S LiPO backup packs were wired to the Jives' BEC slave output with a Y-cable/connector:

input to the Y are Jive slave BEC cable, backup pack; output from the Y is single wire that goes to the FBL's empty/or-not connection port for extra power.

You can also place a switch on the single output wire from the Y that is going to the FBL's port for convenience.

Is this how your setup is configured?

thanks

Here's a simple diagram of my high voltage (i.e. 8 volts output from the ESC) power connections. The Jive/Kosmik Master output goes to channel 3 of my Futaba SBus receiver which is the throttle channel. I use the governor in the Kontronik ESC and bypass the gyro completely when it comes to throttle. The cable going from the receiver to the Spartan VX1e is the SBus signal cable. So then, at this point, I have power from the Kontronik BEC to the receiver and from the receiver to the gyro. I then connect the Jive/Kosmik Slave output to the gyro. I now have a redundant power path from the BEC through the receiver to the gyro, and from the BEC to the gyro and then to the receiver. The "Y Cable" is connected to the Datapod port on the Spartan VX1e. One lead of the Y Cable goes to the Datapod and the other lead (which is just two cables: plus and minus power) goes through the Futaba receiver switch to the lipo. After booting up the system using the flight lipo pack, I flip the Futaba receiver switch and place the backup lipo in parallel with the power bus of the gyro which is connected to the receiver and servos. In order to have backup power, you of course do have to remember to flip the Futaba receiver switch to place the backup battery in parallel with the BEC. I use this arrangement on a tri blade Goblin 700, a Trex 700, a Goblin 570 and two 500 size helis. Hope this helps.

[helirifick]

^^Thanks for the diagram.