Learning smack 3D

[FailureToFly]

There doesn't seem to be any real info on learning smack so I wondered if a thread should be started in the RC Flight School area where this type of flying could be more easily learned/discussed.

There is a bit of information on how to learn pro style piro flips and a few other reasonably advanced tricks but the little transitions and tail scoops, and subtle flips and rolls etc that make up the Tareq style smack arsenal never seem to be discussed.

IMHO it seems to be the 'glue' that binds together advanced moves and it seems to separate someone that can fly all the usual stuff like all orientation funnels, hurricanes, piro flips, tic tocs etc to a high standard and someone where you immediately think 'wow, that flyer is pretty talented' even though the level of core tricks aren't that much different.

I would say that the items to pave the way to learning this stuff with control are:

Solid AO stationary hovers (I'm going to use AO for All Orientation)
Piro hovers AO
Stationary flips/rolls AO
AO hurricanes
AO funnels
Pro style Piro flips
Piro circuits
Solid tic toc ability

Now whilst I am not a smack flyer atm, I practice all of the items listed below. I don't myself wish to learn 'on the deck' smack as it wrecks helis and I see no kudos on taking brave pills and hoping the heli doesn't get trashed. I want the control you develop and wish to be able to do it with precision at say ~6' and up which gives me a touch of wiggle room.

So, some moves I have seen and practice:

Stationary SO (Side On) momentary held backflip (an ever popular smack move)
Stationary SO momentary held roll (another ever popular smack move)
The SO scoop piro flip (from say upright tail right hover to inverted tail left hover)
SO backflip with added collective to push away
SO bunny hops backwards and forwards
Traveling SO half piro tic toc so you move in front of yourself back and forth
SO single piro, piro tic tocs
Upright tail in piro flip scoop to inverted tail left (can be reversed)
Inverted tail left scoop to upright nose in (can be reversed)
The 'Woohoo' which seems to be a nose in half piro tic toc with the tail starting first
Nose in flips
Half piro tic tocs done at smack height and used as a transition move (i.e. woohoo, then do a couple of these and then piro into a scoop, then flip into a SO piro tic toc/piro flip whatever)
SO moving backwards rolls
4 or 8 point tic tocs
SO tail down tic tocs

There are also little tricks like popping the collective abruptly and quickly reducing the collective during short rainbow for example and then maxing it out again. Also things like quickly moving the heli upward inverted and then immediately downwards in a little pitch pump to show control between technical moves.

What are some moves that could be used for smack techniques and even more importantly what move can you use to bind these bits together?

If fellow flyers can add their ideas and even include YT vids with reference to moves (i.e. 1m20s flyer performs XYZ move which requires this core ability to pull off - here is some ideas/references etc to how to do it), that would be absolutely awesome.

Developing a 'Smack School' thread along the lines of ArchMageAu's training system would be a great idea IMHO.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by FailureToFly

...Developing a 'Smack School' thread along the lines of ArchMageAu's training system would be a great idea IMHO.

I think you have given yourself a challenge.

Problem I find with smack is defining a target proficiency level/quality. You listed a number of good manoeuvres. Just trying to get a progression sequence and a measure of proficiency before moving from one to the next. I'm thinking of maybe a sequence or routine with transitions would be best.

Basics beyond the AO hover and AO circles seems to be:
- AO basic non piroing/non-flipping manoeuvres (loops, stall turns, hurricanes (fast, high bank angle circles), tic-tocs, bunny hops, autorotations)
- stationary fast piro
- straight line travel fast piro
- circular (upright/inverted) fast piro
- basic manoeuvres while performing fast piro
- AO stationary constant speed flips and rolls
- AO straight line constant speed flips and rolls
- AO circular constant speed flips and rolls
- AO basic manoeuvres while performing constant speed flips and rolls
- stationary constant speed piro flips
- straight line constant speed piro flips
- circular constant speed piro flips
- basic manoeuvres while performing constant speed piro flips

If you can do all the above to a high level of proficiency, then I believe, there is no manoeuvre you cannot do with an RC helicopter. (eg. snap rolls)

[FailureToFly]

I certainly have haven't I!

Smack can easily be done quite badly so you really need some control to do it well. The difficulty I personally find is that when you don't execute a move that well at this low height it's quite evident as you get considerable drift.

From what I've seen, most smack guys just morph a less than perfect move into something else when this happens and it can look really good, but you don't really get that stationary Tareq thing happening and one sloppy move into another compounds the errors until you need to move quickly to regain control or just recover which looks a bit odd.

The advanced piro moves you listed below probably are the holy grail of heli control simply because executing clean repetitive, pro style piro flips in basically one spot with random reversals is reasonably difficult because it takes a lot of work/time to perfect. Taking that move and then working it accurately through a loop or hurricane/funnel is harder again. I'm reversing my piro flips atm but I'm not sure I want to put that effort into a single move to get near perfection (even if I could actually do it). Getting down stationary piro flips for a whole lipo would be extremely difficult.

I don't think my brain really wants me to follow how far the narrow piro flip stuff can be taken (my brain is thanking me ) so I'd prefer to put the effort into a broader set of (for me) more liberating tricks.

Smack IMHO seems to be its own animal and seems to warrant its own level of study like piro flips or tic tocs. It's also a style where you can be quite spontaneous and creative and really quite aggressive. I do like the aggressive side of flying at times so it does resonate with me personally.

If I get competent enough I will attempt to put together a basic smack routine with transitions that someone can practice. This is something that will be rote learned but will include required basics that can reference your system to get the move down. I imagine that something that lasts for only a single minute of flight will be akin to a labour of love to create/explain/video/execute!

Anyway, hopefully we can catch up for a fly again soon!

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

I think you have given yourself a challenge.

Problem I find with smack is defining a target proficiency level/quality. You listed a number of good manoeuvres. Just trying to get a progression sequence and a measure of proficiency before moving from one to the next. I'm thinking of maybe a sequence or routine with transitions would be best.

Basics beyond the AO hover and AO circles seems to be:
- AO basic non piroing/non-flipping manoeuvres (loops, stall turns, hurricanes (fast, high bank angle circles), tic-tocs, bunny hops, autorotations)
- stationary fast piro
- straight line travel fast piro
- circular (upright/inverted) fast piro
- basic manoeuvres while performing fast piro
- AO stationary constant speed flips and rolls
- AO straight line constant speed flips and rolls
- AO circular constant speed flips and rolls
- AO basic manoeuvres while performing constant speed flips and rolls
- stationary constant speed piro flips
- straight line constant speed piro flips
- circular constant speed piro flips
- basic manoeuvres while performing constant speed piro flips

If you can do all the above to a high level of proficiency, then I believe, there is no manoeuvre you cannot do with an RC helicopter. (eg. snap rolls)

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by FailureToFly

There doesn't seem to be any real info on learning smack

http://www.smacktalkrc.com/

As real as it gets.

[TheVortex3d]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

http://www.smacktalkrc.com/

As real as it gets.

+1 They have an episode dedicated to Smack. In a nutshell, smack is all about flying low. Making it look like you're about to crash at any time but don't. It has nothing to do with technical maneuvers. There's not much in the way of tips on how to do it. One of the tips they do give is how to get an aggressive pop in your maneuvers. The trick is to bang the stick all the way on the stops then come immediately back to center. That's how Tareq gets those super crisp stops. Of course it's not that easy, it's a skill of it's own. You can't always go all the way, you have to keep playing with it until it looks right.

[Kap'n Krunch]

if you want to learn smack watch videos and try to emulate what you see breaking the moves down in increments...

[gitbse]

Originally Posted by Kap'n Krunch

if you want to learn smack watch videos and try to emulate what you see breaking the moves down in increments...

That' what I've done for a long time. I don't fly "smack" style very much, but I can violate a heli fairly well when I want to.
I've watched alot of different videos, and copied signature moves, and stuff that I want to emulate. That's how you learn.

[FailureToFly]

I guess I'm not wanting to learn the more obvious elements of smack which are the max collective pop and 'just fly low' mantra as IMHO these don't necessarily constitute 'smack flying' in its entirety; rather they are just a couple of techniques that add risk (low flying) and add aggressiveness (the stick 'banging' side) to the style. Plus they are pretty easy to apply in comparison to the actual techniques.

Tareq has a technical 3D style of 'smack' and this what I am personally looking to learn.

IMHO doing technical 3D/smack at 15' is the same as doing it at 2' but JIMHO it's a little more intelligent and will add a decent level of survivability!

Copying vids and what other flyers do is how most of us learnt 3D I guess and this is how I have also picked up moves.

I think I'll need to invest in Fraps soon to record some sim moves.

[meatbomber]

For what you want I would recommend watching Daniel Jetschins videos rather than tareqs. he's flying very technical but not as hard.

The other thing that makes the difference between someone who can do all the "tricks" and someone that has a great flying style is the ability to improvise and transitions

TRANSITIONS TRANSITIONS TRANSITIONS
If one can't do them one lacks the glue you spoke of that binds the
Manouvers together

In transitions I found the half piro flip the most important single building block to
Mal nice transitions. mobiuses are nothing else but can be flown in lots of different ways

Chees

[TheVortex3d]

Originally Posted by FailureToFly

I guess I'm not wanting to learn the more obvious elements of smack which are the max collective pop and 'just fly low' mantra as IMHO these don't necessarily constitute 'smack flying' in its entirety; rather they are just a couple of techniques that add risk (low flying) and add aggressiveness (the stick 'banging' side) to the style. Plus they are pretty easy to apply in comparison to the actual techniques.

Tareq has a technical 3D style of 'smack' and this what I am personally looking to learn.

IMHO doing technical 3D/smack at 15' is the same as doing it at 2' but JIMHO it's a little more intelligent and will add a decent level of survivability!

Copying vids and what other flyers do is how most of us learnt 3D I guess and this is how I have also picked up moves.

I think I'll need to invest in Fraps soon to record some sim moves.

Spend the $3 and download the smacktalk episode. You're refusing to accept what smack is. It's like saying IMHO nose in hovering is 3d. I don't know what you think the "actual techniques" are. Tareq has a smack style because he flies low, aggressive, quick, and does the pops. That's what smack is. Technical 3d has nothing to do with smack. Do a tic toc at 15' it's 3d, do a tic toc at 1' it's smack. It's not about being intelligent or survivability, it's about being exciting and risky. You can try to redefine what smack is all you want, but like the dude says " that's like... your opinion man."

[FailureToFly]

I've seen Daniel's name mentioned previously; I'll look him up on YT.

This is it isn't it. Transitions and flow. I use a lot of little piro style moves like piro scoops, quarter/half piros/piro tic tocs etc. I think this is something that comes after the basic tricks are there and just transforms your flying. I need another year or so of working to get all this locked down so I can transition both ways (also random reversals on all moves).

Originally Posted by meatbomber

For what you want I would recommend watching Daniel Jetschins videos rather than tareqs. he's flying very technical but not as hard.

The other thing that makes the difference between someone who can do all the "tricks" and someone that has a great flying style is the ability to improvise and transitions

TRANSITIONS TRANSITIONS TRANSITIONS
If one can't do them one lacks the glue you spoke of that binds the
Manouvers together

In transitions I found the half piro flip the most important single building block to
Mal nice transitions. mobiuses are nothing else but can be flown in lots of different ways

Chees

[Trexwilly]

Hmm, smack to me is low, and hard stops, with some snap to them. Pop and lock is the phrase I would use to describe Tareq's distinct smack style,

This is my form of Smack... May not be as exciting to watch as the big kids, but it sure is exhilarating to fly, my knee's were a knocking after this flight!

Beating on the beater (4 min 4 sec)

If you are not under 10 foot, you're not flying smack

[PassinThru]

Pretty exciting to watch for this old fart. Well done, sir!

[LoveToFly1]

very nice flight!

[Jmann841]

I have to agree with FTF, there is smack 3D, then there is technical smack 3D.

Dunkan Bossion always comes to mind, he beats the CRAP out of his X7, but, if you look at it, it is extremely precise and technical as well. Check out this flight...

Gaui X7 , Dunkan Bossion , Freestyle Professional Level , 3D Heli Masters Venlo 2014 *HD* (4 min 3 sec)

[Kap'n Krunch]

and all with the beast-X and the vbar guys were like