Post your 500 videos and pictures here!

[Finless]

Personally if you cannot piro in a stationary position BOTH upright and inverted, you shouldn't be trying piro flips. I mean think about it. How can you expect to piro flip holding it in one location if you cant hover piro holding it in one location?

I have many posts about this and talk about what I call "Stick Bangers". The Sim allows people to forcefully learn advanced maneuvers like piro flips by simply practicing until they get it. The bad part is they never spend the time to get REALLY good doing more simple things perfectly before moving on. Sure play around if you like and it is fun but trust me that if you don't spend the time on the real hard orientation stuff, it will be harder later. In fact ask any of the top guys and they will tell you the same thing.

I personally think you should be able to fly figure 8s or any pattern inverted long before forcing yourself to learn piro flips or other advanced maneuvers. If you think about it knowing how to do that and have all your orientations down allows you to save yourself from crashes! If you make a mistake in an advanced maneuver and come out in some orientation your not comfortable with, it usually ends in a crash just like the video being talked about showed.

You can see the difference between those that worked on the orientation skills and those that did not and moved to advanced maneuvers. The ones that didn't seem to always do maneuvers the same way... example is upright stuff always seems to be mostly tail in. Inverted stuff always is nose in. Just an example but watch. The more advanced pilots (and the most fun to watch) got through that can do just about any maneuver in just about any orientation.
For instance, those that learned to hover inverted nose in, can you do it tail in? Usually not and if you cant in my opinion you shouldn't be trying piro flips. What happens when you make a mistake and wind up inverted tail in? This is where I see many crashes that didn't need to happen.

My 3 cents,
Bob

[dannylightning]

i am 32 not that it matters but i will answer your question. i see what you are saying, but you have no idea what orientations i know and don't know that is what makes me mad, u come out with a statement with no knowledge of my flying background.

i got confused, and dumped it. that tail spun around so fast and i just followed threw on the controls to do the pyro flip when i pulled out of it, tail in and right side up i was not exactly sure where orientation the heli was. if i would not halve lost orientation it probably would not have crashed.

i do them on the sim and i do them on my other heli flawlessly, my problem was having my tail set to a higher than i am used to pyro rate and if you notice i did not have the heli near any one when i did it.

[dannylightning]

Originally Posted by Finless

Personally if you cannot piro in a stationary position BOTH upright and inverted, you shouldn't be trying piro flips. I mean think about it. How can you expect to piro flip holding it in one location if you cant hover piro holding it in one location?

I have many posts about this and talk about what I call "Stick Bangers". The Sim allows people to forcefully learn advanced maneuvers like piro flips by simply practicing until they get it. The bad part is they never spend the time to get REALLY good doing more simple things perfectly before moving on. Sure play around if you like and it is fun but trust me that if you don't spend the time on the real hard orientation stuff, it will be harder later. In fact ask any of the top guys and they will tell you the same thing.

I personally think you should be able to fly figure 8s or any pattern inverted long before forcing yourself to learn piro flips or other advanced maneuvers. If you think about it knowing how to do that and have all your orientations down allows you to save yourself from crashes! If you make a mistake in an advanced maneuver and come out in some orientation your not comfortable with, it usually ends in a crash just like the video being talked about showed.

You can see the difference between those that worked on the orientation skills and those that did not and moved to advanced maneuvers. The ones that didn't seem to always do maneuvers the same way... example is upright stuff always seems to be mostly tail in. Inverted stuff always is nose in. Just an example but watch. The more advanced pilots (and the most fun to watch) got through that can do just about any maneuver in just about any orientation.
For instance, those that learned to hover inverted nose in, can you do it tail in? Usually not and if you cant in my opinion you shouldn't be trying piro flips. What happens when you make a mistake and wind up inverted tail in? This is where I see many crashes that didn't need to happen.

My 3 cents,
Bob

you are right, and they way that you put it is not going to upset any one but the way the other guy came across just did not set right with me, maybe i should read his origional comment again.

i do stuff for real the way i am most comfortable with, i can fly nose forward inverted circles and figure 8's on the sim, i can't do inverted flight with the tail leading very well, i can hover inverted in every orientation but still a little shakey on tail in inverted and don't like it yet..

i don't relay have a desire to do any inverted circles or figure 8's in real life so i only practice that stuff on the sim for orientation purposes.

i occasionally do side in loops and rolls and things like that but i enjoy flying away from me and towards me the most. so i usually do every thing like that.

and any time i do something new i do take it away from where every one is standing.

ok i read the other guys post again, he just flat out and said that i have no idea how to do nose in in not so many words. and he does have no ideal if i can do nose in in witch ever orientation he was speaking of. i feel that is just wrong on his part.

[DominicD]

The unexpected piro rate excuse is what makes us think this Danny. One sure sign that you cannot actually piro flip is that you are using full rudder to piro flip. If you can truly piro flip the piro rate and cyclic response doesn't matter, you can piro flip any machine. I am pretty good at piro flips (by no means in the same league as Jason or Alan) but even I can take any random machine at the club and piro flip it, I demonstrated this by piro flipping the machines i helped setup at the IRCHA setup clinic (people seem to get a kick out of watching their heli do them).

This is my stance on piro flips, DONT bother with them, don't learn them. The ability to do piro flips will come as a natural progression from knowing your orientations. You should be able to have complete control (go as slow/fast, wide/narrow, and move the circles around at will) over nose up/down funnels, nose in/out hurricanes, all updown and upright. You should then be able to do CLEAN transitions from any one of those 4 orientations. Add a piro during the transitions. Once you can do all of this properly a piro flip is EASY.

I am also guilty of trying to piro flip before I could actually control the heli, I waste several good months on this stupidity. At some point I had enough, sure I could do them but only but the will of the gods, I had no control at all over them. I decided then to go back to the basics and learn all my funnels and hurricanes, 1.5 years later I can piro anything.

[DominicD]

P.S. Danny "the other guy" Will James owns this Rodeo

[dannylightning]

Originally Posted by HFG

The unexpected piro rate excuse is what makes us think this Danny. One sure sign that you cannot actually piro flip is that you are using full rudder to piro flip. If you can truly piro flip the piro rate and cyclic response doesn't matter, you can piro flip any machine. I am pretty good at piro flips (by no means in the same league as Jason or Alan) but even I can take any random machine at the club and piro flip it, I demonstrated this by piro flipping the machines i helped setup at the IRCHA setup clinic (people seem to get a kick out of watching their heli do them).

This is my stance on piro flips, DONT bother with them, don't learn them. The ability to do piro flips will come as a natural progression from knowing your orientations. You should be able to have complete control (go as slow/fast, wide/narrow, and move the circles around at will) over nose up/down funnels, nose in/out hurricanes, all updown and upright. You should then be able to do CLEAN transitions from any one of those 4 orientations. Add a piro during the transitions. Once you can do all of this properly a piro flip is EASY.

I am also guilty of trying to piro flip before I could actually control the heli, I waste several good months on this stupidity. At some point I had enough, sure I could do them but only but the will of the gods, I had no control at all over them. I decided then to go back to the basics and learn all my funnels and hurricanes, 1.5 years later I can piro anything.

well as i have said before ( i think) my other heli has a slow pyro rate so i am used to banging the stick all the way over when i do them and i get the perfect amount of spin to do it. i guess i was just not thinking about how fast the tail was set on this heli. i was flying with a slower pyro rate at first and than i bumped it up and just kind of forgot i did that.. that was my whole problem, i totally forgot how fast i had set the tail when i tried this. i am used to it taking about a second for the tail to make one rotation.

here is footage of me flying on the sim and doing pyro flips

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDm5d5WgQjQ[/ame]

[DominicD]

See that is a sign you do not have control. When piro flipping you CANNOT hold full rudder. Here is the key to controlling a piro flip. You do not just draw circles with the right stick, you have to elongate some parts of the circle to correct for the heli move out of the perfect spot (the head button ideally never leaves the same exact spot). The act of elongating the circle will cause the circle more time to be drawn, this means you have to alter the piro rate to compensate so the piro and stir rate match. If you are already at the full limit of your rudder stick how could you possibly make it go faster to correct for a faster stir rate ?

[dannylightning]

Originally Posted by HFG

See that is a sign you do not have control. When piro flipping you CANNOT hold full rudder. Here is the key to controlling a piro flip. You do not just draw circles with the right stick, you have to elongate some parts of the circle to correct for the heli move out of the perfect spot (the head button ideally never leaves the same exact spot). The act of elongating the circle will cause the circle more time to be drawn, this means you have to alter the piro rate to compensate so the piro and stir rate match. If you are already at the full limit of your rudder stick how could you possibly make it go faster to correct for a faster stir rate ?

well i am not for sure that i actually have it all the way over but i know i must have it close, i just go from the muscle memory i have when doing it on the sim and up until now it has worked out great. i find them to be very easy on the sim and my other heli if the tail is not at a high pyro rate.

and i am not sure i understand every thing you said there lol

[Finless]

Also if I could do what I can do on the sim in real life..... I would be better than HFG

Bob

[WillJames]

Danny... read what you are writing. Then read what has been posted. Basic orientation skills known WELL would make it so that no matter how your heli is setup doing a move that requires orientation skills is always the same. Capi is a very good pilot, please try to read and understand his logic, it sure sounds right on to me.

Blaming your loss of orientation on that crash on the rudder being faster than the rudder on your sim or other heli just emphasizes our point. No matter how you try to rationalize what happened, your videos remove all doubt but you are not listening. We are trying to help you get better by helping you understand this. Nobody is assuming anything other than you unfortunately. We don't want to see you hurt yourself or anyone else AND we are trying to help you improve by learning orientation.

[dannylightning]

Originally Posted by WillJames

Danny... read what you are writing. Then read what has been posted. Basic orientation skills known WELL would make it so that no matter how your heli is setup doing a move that requires orientation skills is always the same. Capi is a very good pilot, please try to read and understand his logic, it sure sounds right on to me.

Blaming your loss of orientation on that crash on the rudder being faster than the rudder on your sim or other heli just emphasizes our point. No matter how you try to rationalize what happened, your videos remove all doubt but you are not listening. We are trying to help you get better by helping you understand this. Nobody is assuming anything other than you unfortunately. We don't want to see you hurt yourself or anyone else AND we are trying to help you improve by learning orientation.

yes i under stand that, i just did not take your original comment to be helpfull, it was very unspecific and came off to me as being a rude comment even if you did not mean it that way and you were just trying to hel that was not how i took it. i have a bad habbit of getting defensive some times and that is probably not always a good thing

i am listening and i do appreciate the help and concerns being addressed to me. i am going to get on phoenix and make a short video of what i am doing with my stick when i do these and if you all tell me it is not right please let me know and it will be quite a while before i try them again.

am i doing these things right ????

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woojMeV7C0I[/ame]

[Rªzª]

those are actually pretty good. i see a lot of control there and not just wrote stirring. the back half needs work though (it is very uneven with the first half). i suggest stopping after the first half at tail in inverted. level out and gain your composure then continue. otherwise good job. takes a while to get to that level

[dannylightning]

Originally Posted by Rªzª

those are actually pretty good. i see a lot of control there and not just wrote stirring. the back half needs work though (it is very uneven with the first half). i suggest stopping after the first half at tail in inverted. level out and gain your composure then continue. otherwise good job. takes a while to get to that level

i was doing the fist half for quite a while and finally i figured out how to do the second half and than put them together with out a pause, the second half is kind of sloppy you are right about that. some times they are perfect and some times they look like that.

thanks for your input...

[Mike2112]

The last couple of pages of this thread, I'm willing to guess, have been written by people with many combined years of RC heli experience. I, for one, have read the last several posts and found them insightful.

Constructive criticism is always welcome by the best pilots, both full-scale and RC, with great respect and an open mind to seeing things through other's eyes so to speak. Then they are either incorporated into ones knowledge and attitude, or disregarded.

I've learned people that are good at something, anything, will always emphasize the importance of learning proper fundamental skills before learning more complex skills. It is easier to learn than to "un-learn" something. Practice doesn't always make perfect. It makes permanent. A philosopher once wrote; 'the student sees a move in several steps, whereas, the master sees one smooth motion.'

There are two kinds of teachers...the ones that give criticism covered in praise, so their advice is more likely to be accepted rather than rejected by a person's natural mental defenses; and the ones who see an objective with a matter-of-fact approach....sorta like saying; "no that is not what the book says, it's done like this."

I am bablin' up some BS here so I'm checkin' out before I say more weird sh!t! Wax on Danyo-son! It's more than I could do! Oh yeah, and buy rotta heri potz!

Oh yeah, check this out if you haven't already, I think the dude 2 posts back did it! It's very well done. I try to do what he says but wax on and off all day is not my thing...I fly to relax and I only last 20 minutes before I start bangin' the sticks again.

https://www.helifreak.com/group.php?...scussionid=447

[dannylightning]

Originally Posted by Mike2112

The last couple of pages of this thread, I'm willing to guess, have been written by people with many combined years of RC heli experience. I, for one, have read the last several posts and found them insightful.

Constructive criticism is always welcome by the best pilots, both full-scale and RC, with great respect and an open mind to seeing things through other's eyes so to speak. Then they are either incorporated into ones knowledge and attitude, or disregarded.

I've learned people that are good at something, anything, will always emphasize the importance of learning proper fundamental skills before learning more complex skills. It is easier to learn than to "un-learn" something. Practice doesn't always make perfect. It makes permanent. A philosopher once wrote; 'the student sees a move in several steps, whereas, the master sees one smooth motion.'

There are two kinds of teachers...the ones that give criticism covered in praise, so their advice is more likely to be accepted rather than rejected by a person's natural mental defenses; and the ones who see an objective with a matter-of-fact approach....sorta like saying; "no that is not what the book says, it's done like this."

I am bablin' up some BS here so I'm checkin' out before I say more weird sh!t! Wax on Danyo-son! It's more than I could do! Oh yeah, and buy rotta heri potz!

Oh yeah, check this out if you haven't already, I think the dude 2 posts back did it! It's very well done. I try to do what he says but wax on and off all day is not my thing...I fly to relax and I only last 20 minutes before I start bangin' the sticks again.

https://www.helifreak.com/group.php?...scussionid=447

thanks for the link, that is what got me started doing them in the first place. yes every one has put in their 2c and most of it has been good. i dont have a problem with constructive criticism if some one puts it the right way when they say it... i like to hear opinions and things to take in to consideration,

i got the first half of those flips down pretty quick. it took quite a while be fore i got the whole thig down, when i was ready to get the whole ting down i set down and spend 3 days and many many hours on each of those 3 days workin on them and pretty much nothing but them. all of the sudden i was like woh wait i think i am doing it. lots of patients and lots of practice for sure..

[BobOD]

Can somebody do some tic-toks or something. I'm getting dizzy.

[Finless]

Danny.... just my 2 cents here buddy... Stop showing what you can do on the sim honestly. Anyone here will tell you it's just not the same and we all are gods on the sim! Makes you look like a n00b trying to show off honestly.

As for skillz on video...... How about I give you some challenges to show off what you do know?

Game?

NOT ON THE SIM.... Real life! Here we go:
1) Nose in hover controlled in one spot for 20 seconds solid!
2) Show a SOLID hover tail left, tail right, tail in, nose in. EACH has to be 15 seconds solid.... As little drifting as best you can and each transition to each orientation cannot have cuts in the video... RAW showing the transitions.
3) BONUS POINTS! Hover upright and piro in either direction you want and show you can hold that piro hover in one spot!

Show that on video and I will give you the next "Finless" challenges. You might think.. Well BS on that but trust me. As I give you each of these challenges, you might find them surprising and later realize how much they got you to flying better.... It's all a game my friend

You wanted to show how well your doing? Well how about I challenge you to show it? Might be fun buddy and you get bragging rights!

Bob

[snjbird]

Here ya go BobOD

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFTnswNUBOU[/ame]

[BobOD]

Thanks. I was OK as long as I kept my eyes shut untill I heard the tic-tok stuff.

Nice flying.

[Jasmine2501]

20 seconds, Bob? I was gonna have my beginners out at the club give me a solid minute of nose-in before they could solo.

You know... a Finless Bob's Video Challenge thread isn't a bad idea...