Headspeed and tail performance

[bgymr]

What hs are you running? And is the tail good? I have an x3 and the tail ratio on it is 4.73, the tail ratio on the 470 is 3.73. On my x3 I wouldn't call the tail locked in, so I wonder if on the 470 the problem is even worse and if it can be offset with the 74mm blades.

Thanks

[bad007]

Originally Posted by bgymr

What hs are you running? And is the tail good? I have an x3 and the tail ratio on it is 4.73, the tail ratio on the 470 is 3.73. On my x3 I wouldn't call the tail locked in, so I wonder if on the 470 the problem is even worse and if it can be offset with the 74mm blades.

Thanks

Use torque pre-comp on the FBL setup.

[Number]

Precomp won't compensate for a lack of thrust. 74 tail blades are a must on this heli IMO.

[bad007]

Originally Posted by Number

Precomp won't compensate for a lack of thrust. 74 tail blades are a must on this heli IMO.

I have 3 -4.7 and 3 -3.7 tail ratio. The 3 with 3.7 need pre-comp no matter what, It just depends on the setup how much they need.

[Number]

I know it helps - but my point is that tail blow out and not holding is caused by a lack of tail thrust and no amount of precomp will make it hold better.

[bgymr]

Yeah i flew my buddies this weekend. It was the LP version so I think that one is a slightly lower ratio. But the tail was the worst thing I've felt in a while. I almost put it in twice due to blowouts and I was flying two mistakes high. He had the plastic 74s on there with the shorter shaft. The rest of the heli was a pleasure.

I really think it's only a matter of time before someone makes a bigger front pulley to get it closer to 4.25 or something. The room is already there. A smaller back pulley would help too, but I'd rather get an upgraded front.

[Lightningrc]

Have to agree on weekend I managed to get two flights setting up my new 470 metal .
Head was lovely tail even in idle up at 100 80 100 was poor felt mushy and not in control

[Number]

Originally Posted by bgymr

Yeah i flew my buddies this weekend. It was the LP version so I think that one is a slightly lower ratio. But the tail was the worst thing I've felt in a while. I almost put it in twice due to blowouts and I was flying two mistakes high. He had the plastic 74s on there with the shorter shaft. The rest of the heli was a pleasure.

I really think it's only a matter of time before someone makes a bigger front pulley to get it closer to 4.25 or something. The room is already there. A smaller back pulley would help too, but I'd rather get an upgraded front.

What headspeed are you running?

I've never had any kind of tail blow out with 3000rpm governed on 74 and long tail shaft. Even at 2900rpm it doesn't blow out at all.

[Codepox]

Originally Posted by Number

What headspeed are you running?
I've never had any kind of tail blow out with 3000rpm governed on 74 and long tail shaft. Even at 2900rpm it doesn't blow out at all.

Same here, I fly governed 2800 and 3000 rpm with the long (48mm) tail shaft and 74mm blades and the tail is great.
Tail holds and the stops are crisp.

[hirobo]

...

[bgymr]

Not sure on HS. Like I said, it wasn't mine.

I just built mine. I built it in under 2.5hours. I got the LP kit. It came with the extended shaft and carbon tail rod. Really easy build because they piece everything together, you just take it apart and apply loctite. Since I have the Lp it took very little locktite.

I'm waiting on my ESC. I'll report back on my tail and HS when I set mine up.

[bad007]

Originally Posted by Lightningrc

Have to agree on weekend I managed to get two flights setting up my new 470 metal .
Head was lovely tail even in idle up at 100 80 100 was poor felt mushy and not in control

Mushy as in poor response?? I have my tail limits set to 110 on all my Aligns. Responds way better. Running MBP?, up the 3rd pot, rudder dynamics 1. BTW Adding larger/ heavier TBs to a helli with undersized bearings (450/500)will just accelerate bearing wear and cause vibration. I have to keep replacing the main and tail shaft bearings due to getting sloppy.
Stick with stock and go lighter, KDBBs

[rspiegel]

HS = 3000
Long Shaft 74mm = Good Will test more but it hold good.

HS = 2800 need to double check.
Long Shaft 74mm = Ok for Sport 3D but does good.

HS = 3000
Short Shaft 69mm = Not good, Ok to hover and learn to fly

[Number]

HS = 3000
Long Shaft 69mm = Good for most flying, only blows out at very high collective funnels/hurricanes

rspiegel, I tend to disagree with you on 2800/74.... my tail holds very well in hard 3D with 2800/74/Long, certainly good for a lot more than sport 3D.

[Thickfog]

Good grief. How can they release this new heli and blow the tail design? New longer shafts, new longer blades and still it seems all is not well.

Why on earth go with such a low ratio tail?

[HeliLust]

The thing with the trex tails is you have to do a perfect mechanical setup. Complete throws. Making sure everything is butter smooth. Make sure the grips are as far out on the shaft as possible. No flashing or casting marks on the tail pulley ect. There really isn't any room for error in the setup to have a good tail.

Having gotten an early production lm kit with the short shaft and blades I really had to work to get the tail to blow out and even then most of the time I could fight it back straight by listening for the head starting to bogg and easing back a bit. If the tail is causing you grief it's probably not setup propperly, double check for complete throws and that the tail hub is as far out as it will go, even without filling there is a little wiggle room there.

[bgymr]

Originally Posted by HeliLust

The thing with the trex tails is you have to do a perfect mechanical setup. Complete throws. Making sure everything is butter smooth. Make sure the grips are as far out on the shaft as possible. No flashing or casting marks on the tail pulley ect. There really isn't any room for error in the setup to have a good tail.

Having gotten an early production lm kit with the short shaft and blades I really had to work to get the tail to blow out and even then most of the time I could fight it back straight by listening for the head starting to bogg and easing back a bit. If the tail is causing you grief it's probably not setup propperly, double check for complete throws and that the tail hub is as far out as it will go, even without filling there is a little wiggle room there.

Originally Posted by Thickfog

Why on earth go with such a low ratio tail?

His question still stands.

I don't get it either. I mean the Gaui tail was 4.6:1 and people pushed for a smaller tail pulley. They release this heli with a 3.6:1. It's odd. Also what is odd, the room is there by the front pulley to make a bigger one. Why not do it?

[Thickfog]

Yeah. Can't buy that it needs superb, immaculate set up. It's not superb, immaculate quality, so you chase your tail getting there.

Look at the many tail issues Trex have in all sizes. I don't see that with msh, gaui, oxy, logo, goblin.

A good tail makes a heli. They shouldn't be engineered to be that sensitive to set up. That's a pure flaw.

Also look at the limited travel it had with the first released tail shaft. That's silly. Again, other brands have more travel. Look at msh for instance.

Too many issues here. We have:
An outdated tail ratio.
Lack of tail slider travel
Possible need for larger baldes.

Sorry, but cleaning up flashing ain't gonna help.

Poor tail hold is just that. It's unacceptable.

This is 2017. If they still can't get a tial right, maybe throw in the towel.

I have not gotten mine together yet, but I hope it works well. If not, the joke is on me. It's theese continuous issues you see all over forums about align that always had me say I'll never buy one.

Their silly low price sucked me in. I hope that's the only suck of this whole situation.

Or maybe that's their mo all along. Half ass it, sell it cheap to sell a lot, let beta testers box it out. Pretend issues don't exist. Make small, reluctant v1, v2, v3 changes and late changes.

I mean gee whiz. Alan Szabo has no tail blow out issues so it should be solid and ready for the regular consumer. Nope, not, nada. Worst testing methodology ever!

He could hide 1080 degrees of tail blow out and you'll never see it. Also, the pros run high head speeds where the tail is able to perform ok, but its flaws are exposed by the normal "joe at the field" head speeds.

Being a mt biker, I see this in that industry also. Bikes tested and designed after the riding style of the 1% of riders. The ones that can huck and land a 5 foot drop with the utmost of grace, the riders than can hit the corners at 25mph. Then the bikes hit market and frames are cracking left and right on normal people's frames that can't land a jump like a pro, geometry is slow and is crap for the average Joe hitting the same corner at 9mph.

Move on to next model and promote all new product, claim old issues fixed, and they are not, but that new shiny bling hides it all. And the cycle continues..... In so many industries. But man, align is king at this.

Hope I'm wrong. Slightest tail issues I encounter and never again align..... never.

[Number]

Originally Posted by Thickfog

[snip]

I mean gee whiz. Alan Szabo has no tail blow out issues so it should be solid and ready for the regular consumer. Nope, not, nada. Worst testing methodology ever!

He could hide 1080 degrees of tail blow out and you'll never see it. Also, the pros run high head speeds where the tail is able to perform ok, but its flaws are exposed by the normal "joe at the field" head speeds.

Move on to next model and promote all new product, old issues fixed. And the cycle continues.....

Hope I'm wrong. Slightest tail issues I encounter and never again align..... never.

IMO this is the biggest reason WHY the ratio is so low. Everyone these days seems to love super high headspeed crap, so they design the heli with a low ratio to reduce tail stress. But then flight at low/moderate headspeed suffers.

It's my only complaint about the heli. Yes it would be nice if we could get a bigger front pulley. But the 74 tail blades work great, tail holds perfect and stops are fantastic. That certainly doesn't turn a great heli into a bad heli. And certainly it a reason to never use an Align thing.

I also like how quiet it is with the tail turning at only 11200rpm. The Gaui X3 for example at the same headspeed would be at 14,200 and much noiser - I would know, I've had both. Not really something that matters but it's worth noting. I'm pretty confident 74s spinning at 11k is easier on tail bearings than 69s spinning at 14-15k.

And with 74/long shaft, the 470's tail is no worse or better than my Gaui X3 was. Actually, it's better than the Gaui X3 with the stock Gaui tail blades and 360 mains. Yucky.

[bgymr]

Originally Posted by Number

IMO this is the biggest reason WHY the ratio is so low. Everyone these days seems to love super high headspeed crap, so they design the heli with a low ratio to reduce tail stress. But then flight at low/moderate headspeed suffers.

I don't know bud, by all accounts the included electronics and pinion get you to 3000 governed HS. Hardly a super high HS by todays standards. So if what you're saying that this is the reason why they made the tail so low, they missed the mark on at least the included pinion.

I feel like I've given this topic more time than it's worth until i fly it. I did fly someone elses bird and it felt like it was a cyclic analog servo on the tail, but it was a MKS 95i.

The fix is easy. And if align ever did anything that is upgrade their helis regularly. I fully expect an upgraded front pulley soon.

The X3 gets a bad rep for being loud. I think that mostly comes from the hard plastic. If you remember the gaui plastic would eat the aluminum pinions after 30 or so flights. So we all upgraded to the steel ones. But they are a lot noisier. For the last 30 on my x3 I have been flying the aluminum pinion, and it's unbelievable how much quieter it is.

I'm maidening the 470 on saturday, pretty pumped.