which is better to practice on N or E , FBL or FB ?

[hadi10]

well , as the title says.
what do you think is better to practice on , i dont really care how much time it takes me to learn , but i'd rather learn the right way

so is the Old school FB , Nitro heli's better in terms of learning.
or is the FBL , Electric heli's better ?

[flynot2000]

I put in a ton of time at first with a blade electric to get my hover training in, and suffered my share of rebuilds. I graduated to a trex 450 as I mastered forward flight and mild 3d, then onto a trex 600 then recently a 500 fbl. Lately, I again have been doing a ton of time on my inverted hovering and small pattern with an mcpx. The best way is to pound time in on what you can most ofte, and for me that is in the front yard with a capable little mcpx heli. I think it was similar to the 450 performance wise, ie stability, and miles ahead of the blade, but the blade did teach me that if you could fly that flitty thing, you could fly most anything after that Balance that with some sim tim too, as you can try it there, and then use the mcpx (the "real life" simulator) to tune it to real life. Anything you try on a larger heli will just be so much better and easier after that.

[flyinghigh450]

Nitro hand's down because you want the flight time.You can stick a header tank on a 600/50 size nitro and get close to 9:30 min's of flight time with awesome power.FBL would free up about 30sec's more flight time and add a tiny bit more power...

[Mixmaster Pilot]

Flynot2000 hit the nail on the head, for practice it's whatever allows you to fly the most. Hence why the mcpx is loved by so many, it allows flight time when other helis won't.

But of course no one is going to be happy with a mcpx at a field, so then you can chose whatever you want! Nitro allows more flight time, electric allows more flight time for less money in the long run.

I'd say not to bother learning with a FB heli, as most new heli's being released don't seem to have have a FB head option anymore. So why bother?

Of course though, if funds are a concern, you can pick up a FB heli for cheaper and get more flight time (more crash parts money) so FB makes more sense!

All depends on the individual...

[Andy.Kim]

FB or FBL?

IMO, a beginner should learn to fly a flybar first. Flybar is affected by wind so you need to learn how to make adjustments while flying. This instills good orientation. It's horrible to see someone flying a FBL that doesn't know their orientation. A beginner is hindering their growth by switching to FBL right away. Ask any 3d pilot and ask them what's important and they'll say orientation.

N or Electric?

I don't think it matters so much as the size of the heli. Get the biggest you can afford. I made the best improvements in my flying when I got my first 50 nitro. The size helped but mainly the 7-8minute flight time made the biggest difference. It's all about flight time and nitros provide longer flight times. A lot of beginners can get that kind of flight time with electric but it's with a very mild headspeed. Or an electric user can have more lipos or a better charging setup to get as much flight time. That's why I don't think E or N makes a big difference other than personal preference.

[seanh]

since you've flown a while, stick with a flybar for a bit longer. FBL isn't bad but it's different...disconnected/delayed feeling. I've tried it and am not a fan...to each their own. I'm sure that's as easy to get used to as correcting with a mechanical flybar.

Find someone to fly with that has experience in both FB and FBL setups. Get them to help you with yours and just practice until you're comfortable. In this hobby, it takes as long as it takes.

I've been in this hobby for 5 years now and am not much better than I was a year into the hobby...life just gets in the way. So, what I'm getting at is, don't sweat it. Just focus on one specific thing, learn that well and move to the next. You'll get there...no wrong way to do it other than too fast.

[latte]

Nitro with flybar! Oh yeah!

[Elios000]

Originally Posted by Andy.Kim

FB or FBL?

IMO, a beginner should learn to fly a flybar first. Flybar is affected by wind so you need to learn how to make adjustments while flying. This instills good orientation. It's horrible to see someone flying a FBL that doesn't know their orientation. A beginner is hindering their growth by switching to FBL right away. Ask any 3d pilot and ask them what's important and they'll say orientation.

BS pure BS
both are effected the same
FBL isnt going to fly the heli for you you STILL have do all the same thing it just fly different
imo i think at this point if your starting out i wouldnt even TOUCH a fly bar unless your budge is really small
easier to setup less parts more stable heli
over all less crashes and when you do lower costs
you still have learn nose in side in inverted etc again its not going to do it for you

i find flybar helis to feel mushy and slow they wont 'lock in' like a FBL will
might as well say dont fly with a HH gyro ether becouse you should learn tail control first same thing
if you want to take it to its logical end why not no gyro no flybar got to take your hits like the old guys to be real pilot right?
and that doesnt even cover the helis like the T-rex500 that have bad interactions with flybar heads that going FBL is the only way to fix

[frypan]

Originally Posted by Elios000

BS pure BS
both are effected the same
FBL isnt going to fly the heli for you you STILL have do all the same thing it just fly different
imo i think at this point if your starting out i wouldnt even TOUCH a fly bar unless your budge is really small
easier to setup less parts more stable heli
over all less crashes and when you do lower costs
you still have learn nose in side in inverted etc again its not going to do it for you

i find flybar helis to feel mushy and slow they wont 'lock in' like a FBL will
might as well say dont fly with a HH gyro ether becouse you should learn tail control first same thing
if you want to take it to its logical end why not no gyro no flybar got to take your hits like the old guys to be real pilot right?
and that doesnt even cover the helis like the T-rex500 that have bad interactions with flybar heads that going FBL is the only way to fix

I am going to call BS,
On FBL you dont really have to correct to make it fly straight,
or even correct in the wind,
Also a FB heli feeling mushy? Every FB heli I've flown was locked in feeling...

[dze]

i wish i knew the answer but i dont .. my opinion several years into it is it doesnt matter one bit what you learn on as long as its cp and fully capable whether it be large small fb or fbl nitro or electric .. i think what matters more than anything is how much will you fly it and be into it fully. For me i didnt need all that huge power and a large heli to get advanced further than i ever thought i would .. what helped most in this order to get my orientation coming along to a very solid place is a honeybee fp, trex 250 tamed down to 2S and an mcpx to polish it off .. im confident i could fly the sticks out of a large fbl heli no problem after i got used to it, right now im in the process of dialing all my birds mainly the 250s and 450s into more serious power levels .. so imo its mostly in the brain and getting a good training regimen going with something capable that you will fly several times a week if its a .90 nitro then so be it .... may make it look better faster but you wont be a better pilot faster than training on a 250 fb ..

[Elios000]

Originally Posted by flydan

I am going to call BS,
On FBL you dont really have to correct to make it fly straight,
or even correct in the wind,
Also a FB heli feeling mushy? Every FB heli I've flown was locked in feeling...

ok then maybe you shouldnt use a tail gyro ether
On HH gyros don dont have to correct to make it fly straight
or even for wind
see what i did there?
im sure you use a tail gyro right or are you so hardcore you dont use any thing

again its a choice why make thing harder then it needs to be the only kind of flying with rules on FBL is F3C and i know most of the guys here think its like watching paint dry and id bet at some point they will even let people use FBL

[andypants]

I'd definitely go FB. FBL doesn't fly the heli for you. But it does smooth out the bumps on your behalf. Real nice if you know how to fly, and a total boon if you don't. Hovering, for example, is much easier but my feeling is learning to hover is a critical skill for any beginner and come on - is it suddenly impossible with a FB? No, it's just harder, which to my mind is a good thing, ensures someone's in thorough control of the heli before they tear up the sky and if someone's put off by a theoretical percentage of extra crashes, then perhaps helis won't do it for them long-term. I love my FBL but prefer the FB because something with that kind of parts count flying the way it does is really special. Never really got the distain for the 'clockwork'. It's beautiful and I can never, ever outfly it.

That said, setting up a FB head needs a lot of research. It really did my head in to begin with. Could have done without that, for sure.

[Elios000]

Originally Posted by andypants

I'd definitely go FB. FBL doesn't fly the heli for you. But it does smooth out the bumps on your behalf. Real nice if you know how to fly, and a total boon if you don't. Hovering, for example, is much easier but my feeling is learning to hover is a critical skill for any beginner and come on - is it suddenly impossible with a FB? No, it's just harder, which to my mind is a good thing, ensures someone's in thorough control of the heli before they tear up the sky and if someone's put off by a theoretical percentage of extra crashes, then perhaps helis won't do it for them long-term. I love my FBL but prefer the FB because something with that kind of parts count flying the way it does is really special. Never really got the distain for the 'clockwork'. It's beautiful and I can never, ever outfly it.

That said, setting up a FB head needs a lot of research. It really did my head in to begin with. Could have done without that, for sure.

again i think your totally wrong there unless you want to back that up and recomand every new pilot also start out with no gyro on the tail
i can say the SAME things about HH and rate gyros
can you hover a heli with out a gyro sure its just harder so there for every one should learn with out a gyro frist
see how that works?
id bet this is the SAME thing people said about Rate gyros and then HH gyros
and now every one (cept some scale guys) uses HH 99% of the time
would you really tell some one new to NOT use any gyro at all on the tail ? thats the logical end to this

[latte]

FBL does a lot of corrections for you. It compensates a lot for wind aswell. And flying in wind with flybar is imo the best practice there is. You are constantly steering the heli, and not partly going on autopilot with the fbl-controller.

[Elios000]

Originally Posted by latte

FBL does a lot of corrections for you. It compensates a lot for wind aswell. And flying in wind with flybar is imo the best practice there is. You are constantly steering the heli, and not partly going on autopilot with the fbl-controller.

lets try this again

HH gyros does a lot of corrections for you. It compensates a lot for wind as well. And flying in wind with a rate gyro is imo the best practice there is. You are constantly steering the heli, and not partly going on autopilot with the HH gyro

Rate gyros does a lot of corrections for you. It compensates a lot for wind as well. And flying in wind with no gyro is imo the best practice there is. You are constantly steering the heli, and not partly going on autopilot with the tail gyro..

get it now?
ether start stop using gyros at all or let people pick for them selves
you do know that the Flybar is gyro right?
if you dont like things correcting for you you should go no bar

[Mixmaster Pilot]

Originally Posted by latte

FBL does a lot of corrections for you. It compensates a lot for wind aswell. And flying in wind with flybar is imo the best practice there is. You are constantly steering the heli, and not partly going on autopilot with the fbl-controller.

Wait, so are you saying people should stop learning to fly on bigger heli's as well then given they have all those advantages in the wind as well over 450's?

I really don't think it matters if you learn to fly with FBL if all you are going to fly is FBL heli's. Why learn to ride a unicycle when you plan to ride a bike?

[artski]

+1

My first real heli is a FBL, I love flying it and will never go to FB due to all the extra crap you have to mess with to set it up when you crash. No need to learn the feel of a FB heli if you don't plan to fly one.

[latte]

Originally Posted by Elios000

lets try this again

HH gyros does a lot of corrections for you. It compensates a lot for wind as well. And flying in wind with a rate gyro is imo the best practice there is. You are constantly steering the heli, and not partly going on autopilot with the HH gyro

Rate gyros does a lot of corrections for you. It compensates a lot for wind as well. And flying in wind with no gyro is imo the best practice there is. You are constantly steering the heli, and not partly going on autopilot with the tail gyro..

get it now?
ether start stop using gyros at all or let people pick for them selves
you do know that the Flybar is gyro right?
if you dont like things correcting for you you should go no bar

The fly-bar doesn't necessarily correct anything, but it do hold the position I put the heli in. As does a fbl-unit. However if there comes a gust of wind under my disc, my flybar heli is very prone to change the angle it in, while the fbl-heli keeps the same angle and most likely even the height without even as much as a cyclic or collective input from the pilot.
However the flybar-pilot would have to correct both angle and height.
Get it?

The human brain is amazing, we can adapt to almost anything. Like I adapted to my esky honeybee CP, where the heli would spin uncontrollably if I didn't constantly steer the tail, as well as the other movements. But that isn't the discussion here, its whether or not fbl is good for someone who is learning to hold the heli in a steady hover.

Originally Posted by Mixmaster Pilot

Wait, so are you saying people should stop learning to fly on bigger heli's as well then given they have all those advantages in the wind as well over 450's?

A big heli has several other qualities than just being more stable. Its easier to see, and the mass of the heli and the size of the disc naturally makes it move slower, giving the pilot more time to react. And the reaction is the keyword here. Is it not better to be able to react to a movement, than not have the time to do it before it hits the ground?

Originally Posted by Mixmaster Pilot

I really don't think it matters if you learn to fly with FBL if all you are going to fly is FBL heli's. Why learn to ride a unicycle when you plan to ride a bike?

At my field I see several newcomers, all having flybarless helicopters. They hoover in front of them at a steady height, and Im sure they go from 10 to 20seconds between each time they have to move a stick. What do you learn by moving the sticks 3 times a minute?


I think we are looking at pretty big differences at beginners here. If you can fly circuits and do some easy sport-flying, and better. Then I agree, flybar or no flybar makes no difference.

But when you are learning to hover, and I know my fbl-unit hovers for me, then how can you learn to hover?

[latte]

Originally Posted by artski

+1

My first real heli is a FBL, I love flying it and will never go to FB due to all the extra crap you have to mess with to set it up when you crash. No need to learn the feel of a FB heli if you don't plan to fly one.

I agree, the FBL-setup is so clean and hassle free, that I too will have mostly flybarles helicopters.

[Mixmaster Pilot]

Originally Posted by latte

But when you are learning to hover, and I know my fbl-unit hovers for me, then how can you learn to hover?

That is my point. If you are learning to ride a bike (that doesn't fall backwards or forwards) then why learn on a unicycle just so you can learn how to balance those backwards and forwards movements?

With FBL the learning to hover is made easier, it's never going to get harder to hover so why bother. It's just like argument about using a tail gyro. Can you hover without a tail gyro? If not why not? Surely it's a priority to learn to add tail correction evertime you move the cyclic or collective because that's harder and how it's supposed to be done

edit, btw FBL corrects for wind in a different way than a mechanical flybar, but both do corrections. A fbl will stay in the current attitude, but will move away from it's spot over the ground. A mechanical flybar will let the heli change attitude, but will stay over the one spot on the ground "somewhat". So both will require adjustments if you want to stay in a tight box in the wind. Neither has any direct influence on managing height, although a FBL has the better secondary effect of doing so as the disk doesn't tilt as much and change the lift vector.