600e Pro Tail Blow Outs

[raptor50luvver]

Good God,not looked in this section for over a year,are you chaps seriously still fighting the stupid tail ratio on this model?

Take my advice,give it up,try another brand

[jhamel]

Originally Posted by raptor50luvver

Take my advice,give it up,try another brand

it's not easy to give it up once you are vested in this money pit of a heli. Align may not make the best helicopters, but they are masters in understanding human psychology and heli addiction habits.

[OnTheSnap]

Pretty impressive that this thread is 2 years old and the topic is still discussed. In the last 2 years the kit was converted to DFC, which made it hard/not possible to stick the 105mm tail blades on and fly aggressively. Correct?

Strange that the tail gear ratio was increased on the 700e DFC release, but not addressed here. Seems like they adopted the "governor is good" philosophy on the 700e and that ought to trickle down to the 600e DFC.

Oh well. Maybe there is an update around the corner. Or maybe the 600 market is too small to be worthy of any further R&D effort.

[Steemo]

FWIW I gave my 600e pro DFC a whirl last weekend with the following setup:

Rail 696 mains
KBDD EE 105mm tails
Silverline V-bar
DS615 cyclics
Outrage Torq 9088 Tail
600MX 510kv
CC Ice2 80HV + HW phase sensor running V-Bar Gov
Head speeds 2200, 2300, 2400

Have previously run Rail 96mm tails and had blow out on me badly a couple of times no matter what head speed I was running.
Last weekend witht the 105's on I was throwing it around just as hard as I normally would and had no signs of main to tail touches and no blow outs.
The clearance is close, I won't trust carbon 105's, at least with KBDDs they are cheap and almost certainly wont ruin the mains if they do tag each other under hard 3d load

[apper001]

Seems also that nobody ever hears anything from Align....??

Or is that just a stupid noobie conception

[raptor50luvver]

Thats because they are not intereted in their customers,they just want to mass produce cheap helicopters and sell lots of them,and when sales revenue drops,do a special version and sell it again,we have had the Pro versions,the LE editions,the EFL editions,the DFC editions and now the DFC Pro editions,brilliant.

[emilh]

I have blowouts when I do a fast hurricane and when it is windy. I run 13T stock pionion and vBar. 95mm stock Align tail blades. Don't remember now what tail gain I set. Castle Creations Phoenix ICE2 80HV; no gov; using fixed end points. RPM at 0 pitch around 2000 (I need to confirm by viewing my Castle Creations ESC logs). Tail servo DS650.

In order to get rid of blowouts I changed the tail gears for those from 600ESP (increased tail ratio from 3.85 to 4.5). And I was shocked because when doing a fast hurricane my tail blew out again!

I don't want to change the tail blades now and I don't want to play with the PID gains in the vBar.
I will try to increase the tail gain (adjustement to 4.5 gear ratio) and I will install 12T or 11T pinion to help my 600MX keep the momentum (however I suspect that 11T will make the motor touch the servos - yet another drawback of the 600 PRO design - see the results in my next post below :-().
I will also try KBDD 95mm tail blades.

Question: have you guys tried the bob finles' tail mod - which is about fliping tail grips? I did this mod to my 450PRO and it absolutly finished my problems with the tail in my 450PRO. Maybe increasing the tail blade pitch will help here?

Please also notice that the 600PRO is quite heavy in comparison with for example the 600ESP. My 600PRO with 2x6S 3000mAh weights 3,9kg while my 600 6S 5000mAh is 3,4kg. The canopy in the 600PRO is much bigger that in the 600ESP. Taking that into consideration the tail system in 600PRO is required to be much stronger that in 600ESP to keep the heli sideways in fast hurricanes - to keep the mass sideways and fight with the wind resistance.

But it is really strange that I have blow outs with 4.5 ratio anyway. In my 600ESP no blow outs - in the same weather conditions, in the same maneouvers, even with extreme low HS. In 600ESP I have BLS251. vBar in 600PRO and ESP.

[emilh]

Originally Posted by raptor50luvver

I agree,why should we have to buy new motors with a lower KV to enable lower headspeeds to be run.

I think Align should not only offer a 4.5 to 1 tail ratio option but offer a different motor mount for the existing motor so we can run the 700E 12t pinion to lower the drive ratio as to run 2200rpm on the head we are running the governors too low,we need to go down a tooth or two on the motor pinion,something thats easy on other helicopters but not this one as its fixed and not adjustable.

Offer an option however you do it to run 2200rpm,4.5 tail ratio,nice efficient powertrain and i will buy it tomorrow without hesitation.

I thank you nice chaps at Align Corp

The more flexible you make the model,the more you can sell,the more you sell the more money you make,your happy,we are happy,everyones happy.

I agree with the above post. In in addition to that:

Just to let you know - if you don't know it already.
With the KDE Direct motor plate - it is not possible to install a 12T or 11T pinion on 600PRO - because the motor would touch the front servos. I checked it yesterday myself. So an opition to decrease the pinion requires changes to the frame - so I am afraid that 600PRO is just not capable [by design] to decrease the 'motor to main gear' ratio.

So in order to stop bogging the motor with 13T and fixed end points I will now try the governor mode - maybe the governor will speed up the motor for me in my hurricanes and as a result hopefully the tail will hold??? I will check it. And I will also try to detect what is the min RPM when the tail dosn't blow out.

[thegamer]

emilh,

Very interesting posts! I have been thinking a lot about the 'famous 600 pro tail ratio', because other machines like goblin with a higher tail ratio have blowouts too if you push them too hard. There is no doubt that if you use a higher tail gear ratio at a normal headspeed, the tail response will be better, but this will not give you the peace of mind of "whatever I do to my heli, its tail will hold". I have had blowouts too with my Mini Titan at 3000 rpm headspeed and its 4.4 tail ratio doing fast funnels.

It could be what you say: the heavier the machine is, the harder have to work the tail to maintain the orientation, while physics are always the same. It makes sense to me.

About the governor... Use it. I have always used flat throttle curves in my 450 and 500 helis, but with 12S systems, voltage drop is double than helis with only one lipo, so flight performance is affected by two. Governor works very good on latest firmware of Ice2 HV, and better if you use vbar governor.

BLS251 is a very very good tail servo, it can helps too. These tests would be interesting :

- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2350 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2250 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, BLS251 servo and governor at 2350 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, BLS251 servo and governor at 2250 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2250 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2050 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, BLS251 servo and governor at 2250 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, BLS251 servo and governor at 2050 rpm. Blowout?

Maybe too many tests

Anyway, whatever you test on your machines, please post it

[emilh]

Originally Posted by emilh

With the KDE Direct motor plate - it is not possible to install a 12T or 11T pinion on 600PRO - because the motor would touch the front servos. I checked it yesterday myself. So an opition to decrease the pinion requires changes to the frame - so I am afraid that 600PRO is just not capable [by design] to decrease the 'motor to main gear' ratio.

I found out a thread that says that it is possible to install the 12T pinion (by putting additional shims ander the front servos) - see link below:
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=559240
However I doubt that - I have now the KDE mount and 13T pinion and it is not possible to move it closer to the main shaft because the KDE mount itself would touch the autorotation gear. With 13T pinion - and minum shim between the pinion and the main gear - the KDE mount is almost touching the autorotation gear.

[Steemo]

Originally Posted by emilh

I found out a thread that says that it is possible to install the 12T pinion (by putting additional shims ander the front servos) - see link below:
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=559240
However I doubt that - I have now the KDE mount and 13T pinion and it is not possible to move it closer to the main shaft because the KDE mount itself would touch the autorotation gear. With 13T pinion - and minum shim between the pinion and the main gear - the KDE mount is almost touching the autorotation gear.

If you guys are trying to get closer to a 10 : 1 ratio you should just use the new 600E Pro 118t main gear in combination with your KDE motor mount and 12t or 11t pinions
http://wattsuprc.com.au/goods.php?id=1893

The larger main gear should keep your motor further off the servos and counter bearing mount further off the auto gear, hopefully by enough to run even an 11t.

112t main gear / 13t pinion = 8.61 : 1 (stock)
112t main gear / 12t pinion = 9.33 : 1 (problems discussed above)
112t main gear / 11t pinion = 10.18 : 1 (same problems as above but worse)

possible solutions
118t main gear / 13t pinion = 9.07 : 1
118t main gear / 12t pinion = 9.83 : 1
118t main gear / 11t pinion = 10.72 : 1

I can't foresee you having anything binding when using the 118t main and 12t pinion, and it's pretty close to the ratio you are trying to achieve with the 112t main and 11t pinion which is causing problems

[emilh]

Thanks for the info. Good to know that such gear exists. If I install it with 12T I will get ratio that is 14% bigger comparing to the stock gearing: 112/13.

Actually I got back to the KDE Direct documentation for the adjustable motor mount. It says:
Note: the Universal Motor Mount provides the pilot the ability to run almost-all motor and gearing combinations available for the TREX 600E PRO, with the ability to adjust for 12T through 18T MOD 1.0 pinion sizes when meshed with the standard size, 115T MOD1.0 main drive gears.

The mentioned 115T is yet another solution to increase the gear ratio. But is NOT standard size 115T - it is KDE's main gear - not Align's. Align has only 112T gear and the new 118T gear.
But the existence of the KDE's 115T gear proves that installing 115T with 12T is possible, so it will be also possible to install 118T with 12T or even maybe 11T.

But first off I will try the governor. Having the gov in such long and epic hurricanes will speed up the motor and will make me reduce the pitch as well. I am looking forward to my tests of the gov. It should work now with 4.5 tail gear ratio. The gov will draw more current but this is the cost for holding the heli sideways in this maneouver.

[StatiC]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Strange that the tail gear ratio was increased on the 700e DFC release, but not addressed here. Seems like they adopted the "governor is good" philosophy on the 700e and that ought to trickle down to the 600e DFC.

Oh well. Maybe there is an update around the corner. Or maybe the 600 market is too small to be worthy of any further R&D effort.

The latest 600 kit from Align from the 30th of October still shows the 3.85 tail ratio...

http://shop.align.com.tw/product_inf...oducts_id=5127

They show it with a 750mx motor now too .

[emilh]

Originally Posted by thegamer

- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2350 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2250 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, BLS251 servo and governor at 2350 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, BLS251 servo and governor at 2250 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2250 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2050 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, BLS251 servo and governor at 2250 rpm. Blowout?
- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, BLS251 servo and governor at 2050 rpm. Blowout?

Anyway, whatever you test on your machines, please post it

So far I did the following tests (tests were heavy and I recon are very reliable):

- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2000 rpm. Blowout? YES Tail blowout happens without much trying. Governor helps very little.

- 600 PRO, 3.85 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2100 rpm. Blowout? YES It is better that at 2000 but still.. it is quite easy to achieve the blow out. But at that speed the heli seems to be reliable when flying sideways very close to yourself. This speed gives confidence but the still pilot needs to be carefull :-)

- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2000 rpm. Blowout? NO Whaterever you do - the answer is NO. Very hard full collective hurricanes, sideways loops, sideways mobius loops - only the 4.5 ration wheeeezzzee can be heard...

[thegamer]

Thank you very much emilh, please keep us informed.

[Sweetfrost]

Originally Posted by Dino Spadaccini

Hello Gentleman as i stated in the title the new align 600 is a Pro version and has been design to run at higher head-speeds as stated in the manuel.

At 85% you are at 2500 giving the user allot of headroom for head-speed setup. if you decide to step down the head speed you are lowing the total performance of the heli IE the pitch and cyclic response plus tail authority. At lower head speeds you will need to mange your collective and cyclic input to maintain good control over your personal setup. As you can see Align Corp has shown you all via the video that the PRO 600 flies great and can 3d all day long it comes down to the user and personal setup.

I must point out that anyone flying a logo knows that you must pick your own pinion gear to get the final ratio and head speed were the enduser is happy,Align went one step further to hand you an out of the box PRO heli pushed to its limits by Alan to make sure that the PRO version was all that and more. Now i see allot of you just bashing the hell out of Align for bringing a heli that is the next level of PRO performance just not right.

Once again its a Pro heli and should be flown as its states in the manuel anything less just isnt giving the heli a fare chance

Regards
Dino Spadaccini

I agree 100% with the above written. I clocked mine at 2700 at 100% throttle curve all stock setup. But since i'm only capable on sports-flying i run my idle 2 on 80%. As i hopefully get better i can always ramp up the rpm's. I think its a great heli and its intended to run very high HS if one should want to do smack.

[raptor50luvver]

How many comps has this heli won,compared to say a Logo 600 which runs sensible efficient headspeed?

I am guessing none,which begs the question whats so great about a terribly inefficient headspeed?

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by raptor50luvver

How many comps has this heli won,compared to say a Logo 600 which runs sensible efficient headspeed?

I am guessing none,which begs the question whats so great about a terribly inefficient headspeed?

LOL. Put it this way instead - Do you think if Kyle had flown a 600 Pro with 105mm tail blades he would have still won the competition? I think yes.

[Turttle]

The ds650 is really not a good tail servo

[Smoggie]

Originally Posted by emilh

- 600 PRO, 4.5 ratio, DS650 servo and governor at 2000 rpm. Blowout? NO Whaterever you do - the answer is NO. Very hard full collective hurricanes, sideways loops, sideways mobius loops - only the 4.5 ration wheeeezzzee can be heard...

I apologise in advance for being lazy, i'm sure the answer is already posted somewhere if i searched hard enough.. but i'll ask anyway.

How exactly do you increase the tail ratio to 4.5?

EDIT.. it's ok, i found the thread on changing the ratio!