** LIPO BASICS ** Read me first!

[REVOJohn]

3.3v is perfecty fine. i'm still baffled by this breaking in idea for lipo. the older nimh yes defiitely but lipo i'm not convinced. do we break in our laptop or cell phone lipos/

anyways at leo industries we're in the process of setting up a partnership with TUM university battery research centre to set up non profit rc lipo educational and product testing centre plus website of course. thus we'll have a faq website with all the do's and don;t along with testing of various lipo brands under full rated loads vs cycle life. also safety testing in line with UN protocols

what do you guys think. any feedback welcome

[Slyster]

The manufactures say to break it in. What more proof do you want?

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=256255

[REVOJohn]

you classify these guys as manufacturer........come on

[Slyster]

Huh? Well do as you wish. Ignore common practice it's your money not mine!

[REVOJohn]

hey slyster its not my money either. just trying to help you all out as i've been involved in the development of high rate lithium since uni days. i was lucky. turned my studies into a hobby and then a business
i own revolectrix and have been in the lithium cells technlogy game since 1994 with 2 patents to my name...albeit lifepo4 chemistry. leo-energy.com is my company and we pretty much develope battery systems from everything as small as an electroni cigarette to EV stuff

i am also proud to announce that revolectrix and TUM university - lithium electrochemistry department today in principle agreed to set up a lithium educational and lipo verification website for rc hobby community.

we'll have a faq section, live support on lipo questions, and of course product performance verification of all the bigger brands out in the market. totally non for profit. the lab is actually almost done but we'll have to start putting the answers to those most common questions together verified by the professors as TUM. if you all have any questions that you are not sure of then feel free to ask and we'll definitely have them answered.........hope to have it live by feb

[Slyster]

Oh THAT John yes.. you certainly have more knowledge than myself, and probably more than those who write instructions for lipos.

I don't know... is it true that there is an 'inhibitor' or some sort of chemical that makes the lipos safer for storage longevity and transport? that needs to be burned off? That's what I keep hearing. I've heard a few interviews with Lucien Miller and he mentions break in.

Your FAQ section will be valuable... looking forward to it

[s0laris]

A NON Biased third party testing of various battery brands under a plethora of different load environments along with charging and storage research would be extremely welcome.!

I have never bought into the breaking in of lipos and have not found any significant differences as a result. Most of the issues are simply the luck of the draw.

However I will testify that new packs do take a certain amount of cycles before they provide their peak potential. I am not sure why that is. Maybe it takes time for the packs to evenly distribute its ions..

[ElectricSheep]

Originally Posted by REVOJohn

anyways at leo industries we're in the process of setting up a partnership with TUM university battery research centre to set up non profit rc lipo educational and product testing centre plus website of course. thus we'll have a faq website with all the do's and don;t along with testing of various lipo brands under full rated loads vs cycle life. also safety testing in line with UN protocols

what do you guys think. any feedback welcome

Hi John, IMO the site you describe would be VERY helpful to us commoner RC folk who still don't know if lipo brands (like TP, Pulse, Thor, etc... since they really aren't manufacturing them) are telling the truth about things like:

• True C ratings; does a 45C pack of Brand A have the same maximum (tested) discharge rate as their 65C packs?
• True maximum charge rates. At what point does a "fast" charge significantly harm lipos? TP says 12C. I can definitely charge some packs at 12C with my PowerLab8s but haven't dared to do so.
• True mAh capacity; there are rumors of lipo brands understating the true mAh capacity. For example, if a pack listed at 5000 mAh is really a 6000 mAh pack, then most would only discharge 4000 mAh, 80% of the pack. In reality the pack is only discharged 66% (4000 out of a true 6000 mAh) -- hence the reason they last so long. Some people would rather trade a longer flight for shorter life -- maybe in the end you might fly almost the same amount of minutes!
• Realistic expectations of cycle life. How many cycles can you expect if you discharge regularly with 40% left in the pack? 30% 20% 10% -- although I suspect this might vary based on the brand.
• And of course -- the answer to question of the day: Do we really need to break in lipos?

In a nutshell, information -- backed by real-world data -- is sorely missing in the RC hobby world, and it appears that this partnership with TUM University would provide that information. (BTW, is TUM University also known as the Singapore Institute of Technology?)

I'm not sure if the lipo "brands" will like the idea of your TUM partnership, but consumers like us definitely need it.

Sign me up as the first user!!!

[REVOJohn]

thanks for that electricsheep

yah all these questions will be answers. i myself as a battery packers and electronics manufacturer see from this side of the fence all you rc hobbists being bombarded by brands and advertising and misinformation. i think its only fair someone put it right btu the data comes from the source. real electro-chemists. i myself would not be able to answer the questions on molecular levels thus www.tum-create.com.sg these guys will.

yah we also discsussed that the brands out there would not be happy with the data and not pass us cells to test/verify. but if they have nothing to hide then they should not worry. actually we rather buy packs from the shops rather than have them pass us packs.

the only sticking point is we'll have to hire a masters student to run all the tests and publications and generate a little money for his student grant. so wondering if we let battery factories, rc companies etc etc buy some banner space in support of the non profit organisation would that look like we're not truely independent//
we may also have a section we general rc public can donate a dollar if they enjoy the information they recieved.

[ukiah74]

my PL8 will charge multiple packs of same cell count, and differant mah's but it will only charge all packs up to the lowest mah capacity..

[Slyster]

Not possible. You must have safety shuttoffs still on.. like time or mah limits.. turn them off.

[REVOJohn]

agree. no possible unless it timed out......

[Rototerrier]

I had a pretty long discussion with an ex employee from a battery manufacturer and he said there were no inhibitors and that breaking in lipos was not necessary. I don't personally know this guy well enough (yet) to fully trust those statements...but he did spend years in R&D for many different types of cell technologies and I got a pretty good feeling he knew what he was talking about.

I have gone through many lipos over the years, and I have tried breaking them in and some I haven't and I just haven't felt or seen any difference. My personal experience has proven to me that I no longer need to spend any time fiddling around with breaking these things in.

But, it's my money and I accept those risks. Until I stumble upon something that proves to me otherwise, I'll charge and fly and not worry about it.

[REVOJohn]

ah finally someone who agrees with me.
been telling guys that there is no such need on lipo to run them in. on lifepo4 yes they do get stronger after a few cycles. anyway the new lithium educational website with insite from battery electrochemists will be up soon...............keep a look out for the wikipedia of lithium rc hobby

[Rototerrier]

Originally Posted by REVOJohn

ah finally someone who agrees with me.
been telling guys that there is no such need on lipo to run them in. on lifepo4 yes they do get stronger after a few cycles. anyway the new lithium educational website with insite from battery electrochemists will be up soon...............keep a look out for the wikipedia of lithium rc hobby

The guy actually chuckled when I brought it up. It was one of those conversations we just stumbled on as we started discussing our experiences etc. I was able to determine he knew quite a bit about batteries and, always having been curious about these so called "inhibitors", I threw it on him. For a brief moment, I had that embarrassed feeling...the one where you just knew you had asked a really dumb question.

Someone knows all the facts somewhere. Odd how there is always so much misinformation, lack of information, and secrecy around Lipos. It's a very weird and confusing industry.

[REVOJohn]

well we're about to unconfuse it with the launh of of lithipedia next jan/feb

[ElectricSheep]

Originally Posted by REVOJohn

well we're about to unconfuse it with the launh of of lithipedia next jan/feb

...And I'm really looking forward to the "Lithipedia" site!

[REVOJohn]

fyi guys

i can confirm hundred percent that there is no such need to run in lipo batteries.
merely buy, charge and play. the mere formation process of lipo batteries will bring the battery to a state of ready to run. not the case for lifepo4 though.. they get better on running in. if anything you are merely shortening the life cycle than anything else. anyone who tells you that you need to run-in lipo packs either had bad quality packs that have not been through a proper formation process or does not know what they are on about. happy flying guys

oh point 2. there is no such think is rc hobby are lithium polymer battery. there is no polymer. its standard lithium ion. the polymer is another misconception in the industry

[Slyster]

Originally Posted by REVOJohn

oh point 2. there is no such think is rc hobby are lithium polymer battery. there is no polymer. its standard lithium ion. the polymer is another misconception in the industry

Why are they called Lipo batteries then? The po must come from somewhere?

Also.. don't they have a higher energy density than a Lion (like in a phone).

[Rototerrier]

Cells sold today as polymer batteries are pouch cells. Unlike lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which have a rigid metal case, pouch cells have a flexible, foil-type (polymer laminate) case

Looks like his point, though not well stated, was meant to indicate the insides are the same....but the outside casings are different?

Which means there are lipo or li-poly batteries...it's all symantics. Not really sure what the actual point is, but that's my guess.