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Old 07-29-2013, 04:29 PM   #1
tealc
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Default Power plant

I am thinking of moving my OS 50 into my Trex 600n in order to sell the Trex. The engine in the Trex was damaged by the original owner, so it needs parts. The parts run somewhere in the neighborhood of $81 for the head, $47 for liner, and $5.50 for gaskets. I have a hard time justifying that much when a new OS 50 is about $66 more.

All that said, I started thinking a new power plant would be nice in the Pantera. I am considering a YS 60SR or the OS 55HZ-R DRS. I know I am opening a can of worms but which way would you guys go. I emailed JB last night and he put his hat in for the OS. Since I work in a LHS on Saturdays, I can get both engines for less then retail. I know we are not talking about a large increase in power since the OS 50SX is 8.17cc, the OS 55HZ-R DRS is 8.93cc, and the YS 60SR is 9.95cc. Right now I am leaning towards the YS, but it is currently out of stock at the shops distributors.

Just in case you were wondering, the original owner of the engine removed the liner with pliers damaging the surface and he scratched the daylights out of the head so it leaks under the glow plug and liner. Not sure but I would all most bet my life he removed the glow plug with needle nose plier.
Thanks for any comments, Todd
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:55 AM   #2
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Todd, sorry but I assumed you had a hole in the piston - a not untypical failure for the original OS50. Why don't you post photos of the damage because in the situation you describe, perhaps the scratches can be filed/lapped smooth. If so, then a new gasket from OS plus who knows else means we may be able to get your engine running well again.

Unfortunately, without the parts in hand to see what's going on, or the next best thing, which are some photos, I cannot say further. Anyway, there's hope of a repair, maybe not a thing of beauty afterward, but nevertheless a sound repair may be possible.

Finally, one last question. While I am flattered the heli you plan to sell is the T-Rex instead of the Pantera, would you mind telling me why, please?
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Old 07-30-2013, 01:34 PM   #3
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Here is my reasoning on the Pantera vs Trex 600N. Again this is my opinion and experience with both.

There is no way I would sell the Pantera. Too many pluses about it in my opinion. From what I have seen, the Trex is "fragile" compared to my Pantera. One of the biggest has to be in frames. Something in the neighborhood of $60 for a set of Pantera frames vs $70/side + something like $40 for the bottom bracket. All 3 parts seem to be taken out in a crash that might just only break a set of landing gear on the Pantera. That old durability argument. Again in my opinion and experience the Pantera is more durable and cost less per crash. Thus, it is a keeper. Add to the fact that I can communicate with the main man and this all adds up to one happy customer.

On another note, the design of the Pantera engine mount is by far the best when comparing Trex 600n vs Pantera. When I went to drop the engine out of the Trex to chase why the engine was sputtering on throttle advancement, I got upset at how many parts had to be removed to get the engine out. The Pantera is so much easier: take pipe off, disconnect throttle link, undo 4 bolts and pull engine out. The Trex was take landing skids off (leaving nothing to support the bird), remove bottom bracket, remove 8 bolt, undo throttle link, pull fan shroud and engine from frame, take the fan shroud off engine, and sometime in the process remove pipe. As I was going through these steps with my daughter watching, I could not help but say, "What a better design JB's Pantera is when it come to engine removal. I love the fact there is no fan shroud to have to deal with as it is molded into the frame. I also found myself looking for a way to install a snorkel like the Pantera into the Trex in order to protect the engine from anything that could get into the open carb. There are other complaints with the Trex but I will stop there.

Back to OS engine problems. I will try and post some pictures of the scratched bits that is causing the lack of compression. Right now I am so done with this Trex that I just want to get it out of my hair. One way of doing that is to sell it complete, so I am leaning on putting my rebuilt last year with only 1 gal of fuel throw it OS 50 into the Trex and getting a pretty little new one for the bird that I like. I could part it out but want to give a go at selling a complete bird.

Todd
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:41 PM   #4
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Default Here are some Pictures

Here are some pictures JB requested. I have a video of the same bits uploading to Youtube. I will post that link once it is completed.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:52 PM   #5
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Default Video of bits

Here is the video of the bits...[YOUTUBE]
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:11 AM   #6
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Todd, first the good news; you can can fix this yourself.

Begin by removing the sleeve and filing the gouges around the perimeter of the sleeve smooth using a jeweler's file. I'd use my Grobet Florentine half-round 00 (using the flat side of course). While Swiss made Grobet files run maybe 20 bucks each, they'll last a lifetime. However, the same $20 will get you a decent el cheapo set from Sears, which are plenty good enough for modeling purposes.

Next, lap the top of the sleeve smooth using 400-grit carbide paper (the black stuff). Place the sheet on a piece of glass, dribble a few drops of lightweight machine oil on it as lubricant (3-in-1 is fine). Then invert the sleeve onto the paper and using a figure-8 motion lap it smooth. A minute, or so, of this and it'll be good as new, believe me. While you may need a new gasket from OS, this is a judgement call (based on how it looks). I'd probably get a new one unless the old one looked really good.

Finally, with respect to the glow plug seat, that will be trickier, but not impossible with the tools you probably have on hand. While I'd just remove 0.005 using an end mill, since you likely don't have access to one of these, a decent substitute would be a short piece of 3/8" or 7/16" dowel along with some toothpaste and a drill press. Simply chuck a 4-6" long piece of dowel into a drill press, put a dab of Crest or Colgate on the tip and turn it on. Then press down with light pressure for a few moments (a hand-drill might be good enough, too). Regardless, I suspect this will smooth the seat enough to seal the glow plug nicely. I recommend your using a new copper washer.

Anyway, if I'm wrong, you don't have much to loose from trying but I bet this brings things back to snuff. Last question, are you certain the ring is not broken? Just make sure before going to the trouble of reassembling the model is all I'm saying because I believe this motor will perform just fine once again. Thus, other than the cosmetic damage, the performance should come back 100%, which is all that matters. What I mean is I wouldn't be afraid of this engine in one of my own helis because this is an easy fix, trust me. Finally, please let us know how this works.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:14 PM   #7
tealc
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Thanks for the info JB. I will give this a try and report back on result. I basically have nothing to loose and a engine to gain. Todd
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:11 PM   #8
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Default As far as the sleeve is concerned...

Use a ultra fine grit wet/dray sandpaper 1500 grit minimum, 2000 would be better. The use of some end stage rubbing compound(polishing) can be substituted for the water on the wet/dry. Lay the sandpaper on a smooth surface such as a glass table or a pane of glass on a table. Sand the sealing surface(top) of the sleeve using light to medium pressure and keeping the sleeve top flat to the paper will remove the scratches without disturbing the squareness of the head to sleeve fitment.
I also believe that your main compression issue is in the glow plug seal as well. If it bleeds fuel, a liquid under pressure, it will bleed a gaseous state even faster, due to the lower viscosity of the gaseous state.

Tom

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Old 08-08-2013, 05:17 PM   #9
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to answer the original question I have the regular os55hz in all my 50size helis and I love it. I never liked the os50 for some reason.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:16 PM   #10
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Default update

After pulling the carb a part and clean, where I found nothing wrong, I then moved on to the head and liner. I did what JB suggested by sanding the liner on a piece of flat glass. I started with 320g wet/dry sand paper and finish with 2000g sandpaper for a very smooth and polished look. I then took toothpaste to the head and got all the pits and scratches removed. I also put a piece of 2000g on an old liner that was smooth and flat and worked on the inside of the head. I then buttoned the head back up and noticed that I got compression that was not there before.

So, I put the engine back in the Trex and went out today for a test flight and I am happy to report... nothing changed. Still sputtering up a storm. I would put the Panteras engine in it to see if that change what is going on but I am now starting to think there is nothing wrong with the engine. Then the wheels in the brain started turning, I know dangerous, and I am wondering if the clutch or the clutch liner is bad. Is it possible that the clutch is slipping as the rpms and increase torque is causing it to slip?

What is going on is the engine idles fine at low rpm. When I throttle up and reach about 1/3 on the stick, the engine starts to sputter. I tried richening and leaning both value with no change.

I know not a Pantera but mine is broken and I have nothing to report on it. You guys have been so helpful in the past. Let me just say this Trex is the bane of my existence for more reasons then just this engine issue. Can you say "Money Pit." I am regretting the day I bought this crazy thing. But so many rave about it, so I thought I give one a try. Cool metal parts but I have not been happy with it. I should have put the money to another Pantera.

I shot some video and will post as soon as I get it edited and uploaded. Todd
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:23 PM   #11
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Look, Todd, these engines are pretty simple and it doesn't matter what brand of model it's installed in. With fuel, compression, and ignition . . . . they run.

1. Did you check the backplate isn't loose?
2. Did you check the fuel lines for split or leaks?
3. Did you check the fuel tank isn't leaking?
4. Glow plug, did you install a brand new one?
5. Muffler, did you shake it to ensure a resonator plate hasn't broken loose?
6. Muffler, is the pressure line clear? What about the fitting? Is it split or leaking?
7. Needle valve setting, is it at a 'normal' setting?

Happy hunting . . .actually, happiness isn't in the hunting, it's in the finding of the problem.

Cheers,
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:35 AM   #12
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Default Re: Power plant

At the first sign of any tuning issue, I replace the glow plug, change out the fuel (and pressure) lines, and give the carb a quick rinse to make sure no dirt is in there. I've had very few issues but that has always worked, along with making sure the bolts are all tight. I can't remember, but I'm guessing the backplate has to go on a certain way.

Matt
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:23 AM   #13
tealc
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Default Here is the video

[YOUTUBE]
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:28 AM   #14
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Matt, thanks for the thoughts but I have new lines, clean carb, new filter in the line to carb, new glow plug as well as the parts in the engine I mentioned before. I just put up the video. All bolts are tight. I have been thinking about taking the head off the this engine and replacing the damaged one on the Pantera's engine and see if the head is leaking somewhere that I could not see. Maybe even installing the Pantera's engine in Trex to see if it would run. In the Pantera's crash, a couple of the cooling fins on the head broke or bent. The rest seems to be in good shape.
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Old 08-24-2013, 01:22 PM   #15
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Hmmm, have you looked closely to see if the throttle servo is perhaps opening and closing the throttle like that? I mean, is the throttle servo connected to a governor, which may be failing? Just curious because sometimes a problem lies in less obvious components.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:44 PM   #16
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Default Hmmm

Good question. I will have to see what the electronics are doing. Gov is through the 3GX, which I have no experience with thus I will have to check those parts.
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:22 PM   #17
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Remove the gov completely and get the engine sorted and tuned, THEN put the gov back on if you want to run it.
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:41 PM   #18
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Thanks for the suggestions. I will give it a try once I get a break. My masters program started again this week and I am not sure when I will get time. My Greek and Hebrew courses have me very busy. Todd
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