Best upgrades to my 450 dfc for extreme 3d?

[carlytorres]

Hi guys I want to upgrade my stock 450 pro dfc to perform to his limits. I want to start practicing kind of extreme or smack 3d staying in 3s battery. What kind of motor . esc. Main and tail blades. Pinions etc do I need to have a strong and powerful setup? Will appreciate any help. Thanks

[boredom.is.me]

If you are considering doing all of that, you might as well stretch it and run 360mm blades. Also make sure you have the black align gears.

[EjectEjectEject]

When I went down this path I started with a KDE 450XF-3500 and a CC Edge Lite 50A ESC 12/121 gearing. Standard Align blades & tail.

In the end I went for a 4S setup with 75A ESC (insane power - can run the blades at 3400RPM - clocked it at 140KM/Hr on the GPS (calm day and wasn't even at highest headspeed) - but (a) they don't make that motor anymore (although some still have stock) (b) 4S/2450 is heavier (so more suited to "big air" than "smack"). Personally, I was very under-whelmed by 3S & 6S setups for a 450 (I'm more of a bitchy/twitchy "extreme power" kinda guy).

[carlytorres]

Thanks guys .

[Dylan Hudock]

For 3s, the scorpion 2221-6 4400kv has loads of power. I ran it on my 450 pro, and now on my X3. It has more power than I will ever need, and is very hard to bog. I am running 325 blades, so I can imagine on on 360 blades it would have a little less power. But for right now on 3s, I do not need anything more.

[xokia]

Originally Posted by EjectEjectEject

When I went down this path I started with a KDE 450XF-3500 and a CC Edge Lite 50A ESC 12/121 gearing. Standard Align blades & tail.

Damn sign of the times I suppose. I was going to echo your statement that a KDE motor is a must 4S is extreme crazy power.

I have the 6S KDE motor and the power is similar to the 3S setup. You just come down less hot.

[EjectEjectEject]

Originally Posted by xokia

Damn sign of the times I suppose. I was going to echo your statement that a KDE motor is a must 4S is extreme crazy power.

I have the 6S KDE motor and the power is similar to the 3S setup. You just come down less hot.

I've got 3S, 4S, and 6S 450's - and you're right - very little difference between 3S & 6S. We're still lifting exactly the same amount of energy and using it over the same amount of time. People talk about 6S being more efficient ESC-wise, but both are already pretty efficient so the actual difference as a percentage of heat wasted in the motor is tiny. I've found 6S batteries to be more problematic at that size too.

4S on the other hand is a full 33% more energy being lifted for only a small increase in overall weight - it's like bolting a turbocharger on.

Only problem is that KDE have stopped making the 450XF-3500 (I bought a couple of extras as "insurance") (apart from shafts and bearings they don't wear out - so hopefully I'm good to go)

[xokia]

Originally Posted by EjectEjectEject

I've got 3S, 4S, and 6S 450's - and you're right - very little difference between 3S & 6S.

I've run all 3. I had the KDE 3500 and it flew very well on 3S. Really the only difference is the ESC came down hotter. Motors for me came down essentially the same. But most people are running a ESC made for 3S on a 6S setup which means the heat sink is 2x as large as needed for 6S and it will cool better. There is a very minimal efficiency difference like in the 1-2% range.

The KDE 3500 on 4S is an absolute beast. KDE has stopped producing a number of heli motor it sucks I'm still looking for a 500xf 1450kv for my 500.

[EjectEjectEject]

Originally Posted by xokia

I've run all 3. I had the KDE 3500 and it flew very well on 3S. Really the only difference is the ESC came down hotter. Motors for me came down essentially the same. But most people are running a ESC made for 3S on a 6S setup which means the heat sink is 2x as large as needed for 6S and it will cool better. There is a very minimal efficiency difference like in the 1-2% range.

The KDE 3500 on 4S is an absolute beast. KDE has stopped producing a number of heli motor it sucks I'm still looking for a 500xf 1450kv for my 500.

Good to read someone else has "seen the light" with this - I get sick to death of reading how "6S is a whole new level of performance" - when in reality they're still lifting & dispersing the same energy in the same time with similar efficiencies.

In terms of temps, I honestly can't recall any great differences - both are so within the operating window that it becomes a moot point. Off memory I think my ESC was slightly hotter on 6S as I remember thinking at the time that that wasn't what I was expecting, but the logs were well within limits anyway so again I just stopped worrying about it. With 4S I run all my 450 Birds with a 75A ESC making the whole powerplant idiot proof (can't bog it - can't overheat it - can fly it with impunity). Worst I've done is stripped a main gear when I accidentally spooled up in a low headspeed mode (Castle ESCs have a bug that results in it spooling up slowly to a certain point and then letting rip at max acceleration for a short time is RPM are set low).

[jgiannakas]

Originally Posted by EjectEjectEject

Good to read someone else has "seen the light" with this - I get sick to death of reading how "6S is a whole new level of performance" - when in reality they're still lifting & dispersing the same energy in the same time with similar efficiencies.



In terms of temps, I honestly can't recall any great differences - both are so within the operating window that it becomes a moot point. Off memory I think my ESC was slightly hotter on 6S as I remember thinking at the time that that wasn't what I was expecting, but the logs were well within limits anyway so again I just stopped worrying about it. With 4S I run all my 450 Birds with a 75A ESC making the whole powerplant idiot proof (can't bog it - can't overheat it - can fly it with impunity). Worst I've done is stripped a main gear when I accidentally spooled up in a low headspeed mode (Castle ESCs have a bug that results in it spooling up slowly to a certain point and then letting rip at max acceleration for a short time is RPM are set low).

While I agree with this it is assuming that all other parameters are constant. In reality the 6S 450L is geared for a higher headspeed with larger blades and based on what I've read here it's a 4-5 minute max flight time heli. The 3S by contrast is geared for slightly lower RPM and swings smaller blades. I run mine at 6:30 minutes very comfortably. The 6S motor also is able to produce a few hundred watt more power than the 3S.

As such the 6S has more power because it can cope with the higher load it is demanded from it. If setup to be equal to the 3S it will be the same in performance as long as your 3S packs can cope with the current.

[EjectEjectEject]

Originally Posted by jgiannakas

While I agree with this it is assuming that all other parameters are constant. In reality the 6S 450L is geared for a higher headspeed with larger blades and based on what I've read here it's a 4-5 minute max flight time heli. The 3S by contrast is geared for slightly lower RPM and swings smaller blades. I run mine at 6:30 minutes very comfortably. The 6S motor also is able to produce a few hundred watt more power than the 3S.

As such the 6S has more power because it can cope with the higher load it is demanded from it. If setup to be equal to the 3S it will be the same in performance as long as your 3S packs can cope with the current.

Agreed.

The 3S version uses the HML46M02 motor rated at 500W continuous and 730W for 5 seconds, whereas the 6S version uses the HML46M01 motor rated at 650W continuous and 970W for 5 seconds

My 450 comparisons have been done with the KDE450XF-3500 and -1750 motors - both 725 watts continuous.

I suspect a 450XF-3500 with a 4S/2450 battery would eat a HML46M01 equipped 450L for breakfast though; more available continuous power and lifting 1/3 more energy to disperse as the pilot desires

Just makes me smile when people (in general) talk about 6S as being the heli equivalent of a V8 compared to a flat 4 when in reality (apples with apples) there's essentially no difference - and in talking performance setups they never seem to mention a 4S setup with a full 1/3 more energy available.

Don't forget too that in terms of battery wattage, the 3S has to cope with twice the current compared to a 6S setup (again apples with apples) BUT the battery is also twice as capable as the 6S battery of delivering that current. I found 6S batteries a PITA in reality - too easy to kill one cell if you push them hard by under-volting it (which is why when I setup my 550 I went for 2x 4S/5000 so I can swap out in essence "1/2" a pack).

[xokia]

Originally Posted by EjectEjectEject

Good to read someone else has "seen the light" with this - I get sick to death of reading how "6S is a whole new level of performance" -

I never really needed to be shone the light I argued the same many times on here to deaf ears. I gave up let people believe what they want doesn't bother me.

Originally Posted by jgiannakas

While I agree with this it is assuming that all other parameters are constant. In reality the 6S 450L is geared for a higher headspeed with larger blades and based on what I've read here it's a 4-5 minute max flight time heli. The 3S by contrast is geared for slightly lower RPM and swings smaller blades. I run mine at 6:30 minutes very comfortably. The 6S motor also is able to produce a few hundred watt more power than the 3S.

As such the 6S has more power because it can cope with the higher load it is demanded from it. If setup to be equal to the 3S it will be the same in performance as long as your 3S packs can cope with the current.

Depends on how you fly if you start thrashing that 6S 450L around the battery goes quick. I was lucky to get 4 min. similar times with my 3S setup if you thrash it around. I don't recall headspeeds as its been about a year since I have flown last. The 4S had the highest headspeeds and it flew like it was on crack. the 450 was the first of my helis to get a KDE motor and I have all KDE motors now except my 500. They are great motors if you can get your hands on one.

[EjectEjectEject]

Originally Posted by xokia

I never really needed to be shone the light I argued the same many times on here to deaf ears. I gave up let people believe what they want doesn't bother me.

Same. I hear ya!

Depends on how you fly if you start thrashing that 6S 450L around the battery goes quick. I was lucky to get 4 min. similar times with my 3S setup if you thrash it around. I don't recall headspeeds as its been about a year since I have flown last. The 4S had the highest headspeeds and it flew like it was on crack. the 450 was the first of my helis to get a KDE motor and I have all KDE motors now except my 500. They are great motors if you can get your hands on one.

Agreed.

Yesterday I did a test flight to illustrate something for someone. I tried to record it by putting my iPhone in my top pocket - failed MISERABLY - but here's a link to a low-quality version. There are a few glimpses of the heli where people can see the speed and G's it's pulling, but for the most part I think the residual value is in the sound where people can hear both the headspeed and tight governing (even when I mad it sag briefly near the start) (doing continuous rolls).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2g...ew?usp=sharing

I've clocked this heli at 140 km/hr - and that was with the headspeed a couple of hundred RPM lower than it is here (on a calm day too). Just trying to show people that this is what we 4S folks fly with everyday - it's a far cry from my 3S / 6S setups.