Scorpion 4525LE Ultimate

[Heli G]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

Well, thanks for this post, that really sealed my decision to remove 4350-540 from my TDR and get pyro52/Helijive combo. Before I do it, I am not going to fly anything higher than 1700, but that makes that motor pointless, just like I thought.
I also think (correct me if I am wrong), that there are severe temperature issues when running motors like this.

Personally, I'd rather not drill 3-4 holes in the canopy and install some obscure devices just to keep temps bearable.

I think it's wise decision to not to try to make a TDR something which it isn't - a hardcore stick banger heli, there are better suited machines for this kind of flying.
I'll keep 4530 for a Goblin or whatever can take 10,000kw of power without damaging the heli in long (or rather short, I'd say) run.
Of course, it's all about personal preference.

I have manage to bog the Pyro in the TDR, but not the croco 4035 yet...still trying though!

Just flew the Goblin this morning using a 4525...as there is no indication of Vbar settings we started out with the TDR ones and adjusted along the way. It sure has a nice collective pop to it which makes full pos and neg pyroing pitch pumps which Tareq loves so much quite addictive. One thing though is that the TDR flies better 3D as the Goblin...still much prefer the TDRs feel and agility, but I will still give myself time to adjust to the Goblin and dial in the VBar settings before final verdict...working off a blank canvas here...

[Justin Stuart]

I bet the new Scorpion 130A would work with the 4535 without to much trouble. I don't think the Scorpion ESC has any of the internal protections that the Jive has, so it should drive the motor without fail up until the point that it has an internal meltdown.

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by Heli G

I have manage to bog the Pyro in the TDR, but not the croco 4035 yet...still trying though!

Just flew the Goblin this morning using a 4525...as there is no indication of Vbar settings we started out with the TDR ones and adjusted along the way. It sure has a nice collective pop to it which makes full pos and neg pyroing pitch pumps which Tareq loves so much quite addictive. One thing though is that the TDR flies better 3D as the Goblin...still much prefer the TDRs feel and agility, but I will still give myself time to adjust to the Goblin and dial in the VBar settings before final verdict...working off a blank canvas here...

Nice collection!

[worldofmaya]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

I also think (correct me if I am wrong), that there are severe temperature issues when running motors like this.

Depends on what you call severe... my 4525LE run really hot, 125°C on the outside after 2,5 to 3min hard flying. The 4530 X-era (pretty much the same power) and my 4535 powercroco run really cool...the 4535 is another league tough...
Basically if you have 80% r even 85% efficiency and lot's of power, heat is something which has to be produced no matter which motor. But I have to say pretty much everything including canopy, carbon frame and cnc parts of my TDR got hot when using the 4525. Funny thing was that you could see the hot air coming out of the opening between canopy and main shaft.

Originally Posted by Justin Stuart

I bet the new Scorpion 130A would work with the 4535 without to much trouble. I don't think the Scorpion ESC has any of the internal protections that the Jive has, so it should drive the motor without fail up until the point that it has an internal meltdown.

I'm waiting for the up-coming 180A Scorpion.. seams to be a better option for 453x.
-Klaus

[Justin Stuart]

Oh. I didn't realize they were working on a 180A Scorpion. Good to know.

[AcidDrink]

Klaus, thanks again for very informative post.

Seeing hot air coming out of the canopy is what I'd call "severe".
Bit off topic, but I wonder how many Goblins will melt during Summer . The canopy is even more closed than TDR and power systems people installing seem to start from 4525 and then just go up
4530-540 should run colder than original 4525, right?

[Heli G]

Used the 4525 in the Goblin today and it was surprisingly cool for the flying we did. Seems the motor mount that's integrated into the "modular power system" works great to reduce heat. The canopy also has a funny duct system that probably works, but since we mostly did 3D it was'nt being used much.

Like Klaus I also found the croco motors to run much cooler than the other Scorpions. Looking at the logs they also seem much more efficient.

[Justin Stuart]

Why do the Croco motors run cooler than the Scorpion motors? Do the Croco motors use less glue on the windings so that more air can flow through?

[helicraze]

I think wound neater so more airflow.

All my 4525/30/35 temps are around the same. When its winter and less than 20degc temps are not even a concern. Even now at 30deg i just dont care it works.

Ps everything with klaus is severe! lol

[Justin Stuart]

I think the Scorpion 4525 is more efficient than the Scorpion 4035 for hovering and light stuff, but once you push the Scorpion 4525 it heats up like a 100W light bulb. I took mine apart the other day to clean out the bits of main gear dust which gets mixed with the oil, and was surprised at how little space there is between the windings for any air to flow through. I suppose it doesn't really matter since the motor works perfectly well as is, but it got me thinking that maybe if there was less glue on the windings, the motor might not run so hot.

[worldofmaya]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

Bit off topic, but I wonder how many Goblins will melt during Summer . The canopy is even more closed than TDR and power systems people installing seem to start from 4525 and then just go up

I've a 16s 4535 powercroco setup for my Goblin. Just by looking at the second stage gear I'm not sure if this will not end in shaved gears... anyway, another toy to play with until the Banshee is available
If everything goes into the wrong direction, I'll stay with my Raptor which is the only machine right now which is able to handle that much power without extreme wear-out or shaved gears.

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

4530-540 should run colder than original 4525, right?

Of course, it's bigger, can take more heat...

Originally Posted by helicraze

Ps everything with klaus is severe! lol

Haha
-Klaus

[marcosp]

I flew my TDR all weekend with Pyro 700-52 and HeliJive / Vbar Gov. Put some 30 flights and for pete's sake, this heli is really really unique. I had a hard time setting Gov gain and dynamic add / collective add on each of 3 banks for each rpm. I got it great on 1850 rpm but at low head speeds the rpm are just not stable and with higher gain it starts tintilating. I also tried fast runs at 2000 rpm and that's when I met the Pyro's limit for the first time (I've been using Pyros on my Logo and my Kasama). With a 14t and 13º pitch it can not hold rpm. Maybe the obliged KSA on mode 8 has some power penalty.

I wanted to put on of my new Xeras 4530 this morning before flying but later decided to fly the whole day and do the swap during the week since I am not planning on using Vbar Gov with the Xera, just to be cautious, so I need to install the motor, re do HeliJive reseting and programming and undo Vbar Gov.

I am 100% sure I'll love the Xera on the TDR. It's by far the most fascinating heli I've flown in 26 years.

Marcos

[Costas]

You really need a 15t pinion if you want to run up at 2000+ HS with the pyro.

No real different to trying to run up at 1850 with a 13t, it does not quite have enough in reserve with 12s input voltage.

This is simply due to the KV value with 12s supply voltage.

[helicraze]

Agree with you on all those points!

[Heli G]

Originally Posted by Justin Stuart

Why do the Croco motors run cooler than the Scorpion motors? Do the Croco motors use less glue on the windings so that more air can flow through?

The croco motors are more efficient so less heat.

[Heli G]

Originally Posted by worldofmaya

until the Banshee is available

Can't wait for the Banshee as well.

[Stolla]

Originally Posted by marcosp

I flew my TDR all weekend with Pyro 700-52 and HeliJive / Vbar Gov. Put some 30 flights and for pete's sake, this heli is really really unique. I had a hard time setting Gov gain and dynamic add / collective add on each of 3 banks for each rpm. I got it great on 1850 rpm but at low head speeds the rpm are just not stable and with higher gain it starts tintilating. I also tried fast runs at 2000 rpm and that's when I met the Pyro's limit for the first time (I've been using Pyros on my Logo and my Kasama). With a 14t and 13º pitch it can not hold rpm. Maybe the obliged KSA on mode 8 has some power penalty.

I wanted to put on of my new Xeras 4530 this morning before flying but later decided to fly the whole day and do the swap during the week since I am not planning on using Vbar Gov with the Xera, just to be cautious, so I need to install the motor, re do HeliJive reseting and programming and undo Vbar Gov.

I am 100% sure I'll love the Xera on the TDR. It's by far the most fascinating heli I've flown in 26 years.
H

Marcos

Drop the vbar governor set your jive with 14t mode 6 idle 1 at 1650, or lower,id2 65 percent then let me know what you've found! You may be surprised

[marcosp]

Yeah Stolla, I am dropping the Vbar Gov, I think beside's from the ratio reality that Costas is mentioning, which I was orienting to, the Vbar Gov and its obliged KSA mode don't provide all the juice I am expecting, even for low rpm. At 1850 it's a beast, never thought I'd say this, but aaaaaaall of you were right. I ended up close to 1800. I even tried 1900 for 1 flight and felt it was over revved!!! My low rpm tests were 1400, 1450 and 1500. The Vbar Gov felt awful at 1400 so I ended the weekend using 1500 but I want to go back lower.

Next weekend it's the Xera 4530LE on HJive Gov. Back to basics since Jives have always been amazing in all my helis.

As for speed and 2000, I am building Rob's ex TDR as a speed machine. Will go 15t, Jive Gov and a Scorp 4525LE first, if I am not happy I am putting my second X4530.

Thanks, Marcos

[Justin Stuart]

I have never understood the need to use an external governor when the Jive internal governor works so well.

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by Justin Stuart

I have never understood the need to use an external governor when the Jive internal governor works so well.

Well, VBar governor is reportedly pro-active not reactive.

But I agree, simple setups work, then we start to introduce sensors, ESC/external gov incompatibilities etc.. and one may found that potential benefits are diminished by complexity and low reliability of the setup.

Long story short, if it isn't broken, don't fix it