which is better to practice on N or E , FBL or FB ?

[Elios000]

Originally Posted by latte

The fly-bar doesn't necessarily correct anything, but it do hold the position I put the heli in. As does a fbl-unit. However if there comes a gust of wind under my disc, my flybar heli is very prone to change the angle it in, while the fbl-heli keeps the same angle and most likely even the height without even as much as a cyclic or collective input from the pilot.
However the flybar-pilot would have to correct both angle and height.
Get it?

this is wrong from what i have seen FBL will move more in the wind up and down any way
if i hover in the wind and it gusts wile im hovering the heli will gain alt and drop when the gust stops
it will also drift with the wind

you still have correct to keep it in one place

[latte]

Originally Posted by Elios000

this is wrong from what i have seen FBL will move more in the wind up and down any way
if i hover in the wind and it gusts wile im hovering the heli will gain alt and drop when the gust stops
it will also drift with the wind

you still have correct to keep it in one place

Maybe you are right, but the effect is more drastic with a flybar. Its not unlikely that this effect vary from system to system either.



I can only speak from my experience, and that is that FBL is easier to fly than flybar. In my world, that is a fact. Like flying with a gyro is easier than without.


But here is how I look at it: If I for some reason would want to build more strength in my lower body, there is a slow way, and a fast way to do that. There are new theories on how to achieve the biggest muscle growth launched on the internet everyday. But I can tell you for sure, that you cant get in a taxi and sit on your ass from A to B, and expect to get stronger.

The brain is the greatest muscle of them all, and to "grow it" we have to do stuff we find hard to do. In my opinion, it requires more from the pilot to fly with a flybar, therefor you benefit more from it.

I dont go into a gym, and lift easy weights and expect to be able to lift anything heavier in the near future.


Variety is the absolute best for the physical body when it comes to training, perhaps the same applies to the brain and learning how to fly?

[flynot2000]

As stated in a couple of different ways, it maybe easier to have the added stability of fbl, but I don't think that extra stability inhibits learning/training at all.

You still have to learn how the bird reacts to your inputs no matter what orientation, and no stability system will make that task immensely easier. The fb setups are dampeners so you have to wait for your input to cause a reaction, so you have to think ahead, or conversely with a fbl, you get immediate reactions, and at the end of the day I think that is a wash.

Fbl is the way things are going, why do you have to learn to setup/repair a fb and learn to build in a delay when getting a fbl will be more the norm in just a short period of time. I think I see that with all things, electronics/software are always getting cheaper, but fine machined hardware, ie extra head items, will eventually mean fb setups will be more expensive. Heck, you can buy a fbl system for less than what I was buying a single gyro for just a couple of years ago.

So I vote for FBL in something you can fly often (mcpx), and another fbl bird for the field (trex 500).

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by Elios000

lets try this again

HH gyros does a lot of corrections for you. It compensates a lot for wind as well. And flying in wind with a rate gyro is imo the best practice there is.

Especially flying backwards in rate mode. Highly recommended to every newbie out there.

[jombo]

Originally Posted by Elios000

this is wrong from what i have seen FBL will move more in the wind up and down any way
if i hover in the wind and it gusts wile im hovering the heli will gain alt and drop when the gust stops
it will also drift with the wind

you still have correct to keep it in one place

so if it flys like a FB why would i want to spend another 200 in electronics ???

[Elios000]

Originally Posted by jombo

so if it flys like a FB why would i want to spend another 200 in electronics ???

does other usefull things like tail precomp and piro comp
having the tail know what the swash is doing and swash know that tail is doing is the big one
and i was talking about in a hover
whole nother ball game when the heli moving around then hovering

[helienv]

flight time on electric too short?, i get like a 10 min flight doing 3d on my Rave ENV you do not have to run an insane head speed to do 3d! i could run a 2600mha pack and still get a decent flight time

[JasonJ]

Originally Posted by jombo

so if it flys like a FB why would i want to spend another 200 in electronics ???

It's not as simple as that. With a flybar, you can adjust how it flies. You can set it up to be super stable or very reactive. You can't get both though. With FBL, you can have the stability and the reactivity at the same time or anything in between. The sky is literally the limit.

As far as a new pilot learning on an FBL machine, I say it's fine. A person who learns on FBL will be able to pick up an FB machine and fly it fine. It'll feel different but not enough to be unflyable. He may never touch a flybar'd machine in his life. I have never touched a mechanical tail gyro, should I have done that before I learned with a 401?

To say a newcomers should start with FB is like saying new drivers should learn in a 1993 Toyota Tercel with manual steering and transmission before driving their 2012 Volkswagen they were given by their parents . It just isn't necessary. I say if the OP had the financial resources and the knowledge or help he should buy what he wants and learn on it. Those crappy fixed pitch things should not even be an option any more. MCPX for daily orientation practice and whatever nice bigger helicopter for the weekends or whatever.

To say newcomers should learn on FB is basically the curmudgeonly "I did it so you have to do it" thing that we should be striving to avoid. Buy what you want, learn on it, enjoy.

[jombo]

that's good to know , i may pick one up one day when the market gets saturated and the price starts to drop . you can already see some price drops with the cheaper flybarless stuff coming on the market. right now flybar heli's are flying fine for me .

[desertstalker]

Originally Posted by JasonJ

To say newcomers should learn on FB is basically the curmudgeonly "I did it so you have to do it" thing that we should be striving to avoid. Buy what you want, learn on it, enjoy.

+1

Especially when you consider that very few who try FBL buy another non-FBL heli (most convert all their favourite helis to FBL). So if you start with FBL there is little chance you will EVER fly a FB heli (just like no-one who started with a decent tail gyro went back to mechanical ones) so there is no point learning to setup/fly a FB heli.

Orientation is not about learning to correct for all the odd behaviour that a FB heli has (pitching up, drifting etc.) it is about learning to think from the helis POV, not your own. This can be learnt just as effectively with a FBL heli with the advantage that the heli does ONLY what you tell it to.

IMO FBL is the way for new pilots to go, some of the controllers are not much more than a good tail gyro (and the tails in all good FBL units are BETTER than the tail gyros as they can act at the same time a pitch change is made instead of waiting for the tail to actually start moving). I believe that align FBL kits are much the same price as the FB kits. These days FBL is only expensive if you convert, if you start from scratch with a middle of the road FBL controller (3gx microbeast) its only a little more than a FB heli. But if you are on a tight budget or want one there is nothing wrong with a FB heli.

[Andy.Kim]

Originally Posted by Elios000

BS pure BS
both are effected the same
FBL isnt going to fly the heli for you you STILL have do all the same thing it just fly different
imo i think at this point if your starting out i wouldnt even TOUCH a fly bar unless your budge is really small
easier to setup less parts more stable heli
over all less crashes and when you do lower costs
you still have learn nose in side in inverted etc again its not going to do it for you

i find flybar helis to feel mushy and slow they wont 'lock in' like a FBL will
might as well say dont fly with a HH gyro ether becouse you should learn tail control first same thing
if you want to take it to its logical end why not no gyro no flybar got to take your hits like the old guys to be real pilot right?
and that doesnt even cover the helis like the T-rex500 that have bad interactions with flybar heads that going FBL is the only way to fix

Sounds like you don't know how to setup a flybar... but that's your opinion and I respect that.

[Andy.Kim]

Originally Posted by Elios000

ok then maybe you shouldnt use a tail gyro ether
On HH gyros don dont have to correct to make it fly straight
or even for wind
see what i did there?
im sure you use a tail gyro right or are you so hardcore you dont use any thing

again its a choice why make thing harder then it needs to be the only kind of flying with rules on FBL is F3C and i know most of the guys here think its like watching paint dry and id bet at some point they will even let people use FBL

So if it's so difficult to fly a flybar, don't you think it will require more skills to make a flybar heli fly locked in? That's how I was taught and when I switched to FBL I found myself thinking less of what the heli will do and concentrate on what the heli should do.

[Elios000]

Originally Posted by Andy.Kim

Sounds like you don't know how to setup a flybar... but that's your opinion and I respect that.

im more inclined to blame the Blade SR i was flying the that i cant set up a fly bar
i have set up fly bared helis for other people and they like them just fine i just wont fly them for them
not counting the mSR the SR is the only flybared heli i have had or flown every thing else i have is FBL

blame Eflite for making a crappy heli it convinced me flybars are the worst things ever

Originally Posted by Andy.Kim

So if it's so difficult to fly a flybar, don't you think it will require more skills to make a flybar heli fly locked in? That's how I was taught and when I switched to FBL I found myself thinking less of what the heli will do and concentrate on what the heli should do.

ever said that
just the logical track of this thread if you think some one new shouldnt use FBL systems then they shouldnt use a tail gyro ether becouse it does things for you
same thing ether you approve of HH gyros and by extension FBL or you need take your tail gryos off your helis and man up

[Andy.Kim]

Originally Posted by Elios000

im more inclined to blame the Blade SR i was flying the that i cant set up a fly bar
i have set up fly bared helis for other people and they like them just fine i just wont fly them for them
not counting the mSR the SR is the only flybared heli i have had or flown every thing else i have is FBL

blame Eflite for making a crappy heli it convinced me flybars are the worst things ever



ever said that
just the logical track of this thread if you think some one new shouldnt use FBL systems then they shouldnt use a tail gyro ether becouse it does things for you
same thing ether you approve of HH gyros and by extension FBL or you need take your tail gryos off your helis and man up

Then based on your experience (eflite), your knowledge and experience of flybars is rather limited. Question the OP asked is what's good practice. My perspective is that learning to fly a flybar brings a lot of benefits. Flybar helis teach you to learn how to anticipate corrections and how to mechanically change the setup to achieve the flight characteristics you desire.

Is this you? http://www.youtube.com/user/Elios000.../0/H3ZSpDB8NHk

I fly flybarless now btw.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o15EbCiN3Ao&list=UU6dseVkplQxOn0HDpLqQ3WQ& index=4&feature=plcp[/ame]

[desertstalker]

Originally Posted by Andy.Kim

Then based on your experience (eflite), your knowledge and experience of flybars is rather limited. Question the OP asked is what's good practice. My perspective is that learning to fly a flybar brings a lot of benefits. Flybar helis teach you to learn how to anticipate corrections and how to mechanically change the setup to achieve the flight characteristics you desire.

You always need to anticipate, even with FBL the heli does not respond immediately (you are good enough to no longer notice the delay). As to setup, who cares, if you ever get a FB heli later you can learn setup then. Tweaking a flybar teaches you nothing useful if you dont have one .

[jombo]

Originally Posted by desertstalker

You always need to anticipate, even with FBL the heli does not respond immediately (you are good enough to no longer notice the delay). As to setup, who cares, if you ever get a FB heli later you can learn setup then. Tweaking a flybar teaches you nothing useful if you dont have one .

lol it teaches me i have 200 still in my pocket and a free gyro on the head

[Elios000]

i stand by the fact that if you think you should learn with with a fly bar first you take your HH gyros off and only fly rate mode from now on HH gyros are no different
would you tell a noob they have to learn in rate mode?

[jombo]

Originally Posted by Elios000

i stand by the fact that if you think you should learn with with a fly bar first you take your HH gyros off and only fly rate mode from now on HH gyros are no different
would you tell a noob they have to learn in rate mode?

then you shoundnt need any kind of electronics to fly flybarless , besides I do fly in rate , look at my pic under my name lol .

[hadi10]

ok , guys...
i have to thank you first for the advice...ive read all your posts..and they are all helpfull...
but i hope you dont mind asking , how old are you and how long have you been flying rc helis ?

i think its an old school Vs new school thing now....both are right ...

[flynot2000]

This sounds like the next religious war, futaba v jr, align v anything else, etc etc. difference I see is old v new, with some still thinking old sleek cars from the 50's are better than today's gadget filled, safety tested wonders. Do I really need to learn to drive a stick, and do I really need to fix an old fashioned carb? I think this is the same argument.