600e Pro Tail Blow Outs

[stevehof]

Originally Posted by mtuccio

I wonder if this geometry difference has something to do with Flybarless vs. Flybar head? For those that have posted pictures please try and indicate which version of the model you have. Just trying to look at this from a different angle since I've seen some conflicting pictures and my model is 12000 miles away from me right now so I can't verify anything.

My FBL would touch (trailing edge to trailing edge) about 1 to 1.5mm with KDBB 102's, which are only about 1.5mm shorter than the Align 105s. I have done it with ease one time. Once was enough. I put them on my band sander and carefully took off 2mm and weighed them. Better safe than sorry.

[timay]

1) Thank you - this is great info
2) Align responded! I'm impressed!
3) I installed the 105mm tail today on my 600 pro and installed the 700 skids. I was curious, so I took measurements of the tail and fin distance to the ground before and after the upgrade.

I have a fully stock 600 pro with a flybar
The rubber bumpers are on the skids in all measurements

Tail rotor blade clearance from the bottom of the tail to the ground
Stock blades with stock skids: 25mm
105's with stock skids: 14.3mm
105's with the 700 skid on the rear only: 62.5mm
105's with the 700 skids on front and rear: 20mm

Tail fin clearance from the bottom of the fin to the ground
Stock fin with stock skids: 7.8mm
Stock fin with the 700 skid on the rear only: 56.4mm
Stock fin with the 700 skids on front and rear: 13.4mm
My LHS doesn't have a 700 fin yet

I'm a n00b. To my "untrained eye" the new tail made a huge difference. The tail is very snappy now.

[Helico-pteron]

Originally Posted by timay

2) Align responded! I'm impressed!

I haven't been following the thread, were did they respond?

[raptor50luvver]

Originally Posted by mtuccio

I wonder if this geometry difference has something to do with Flybarless vs. Flybar head? For those that have posted pictures please try and indicate which version of the model you have. Just trying to look at this from a different angle since I've seen some conflicting pictures and my model is 12000 miles away from me right now so I can't verify anything.

Doesnt the flybar one have a longer main shaft?

[timay]

Originally Posted by Helico-pteron

I haven't been following the thread, were did they respond?

I guess what I meant was they came on the site and participated in the conversation and identified themselves as Align people. I haven't read all 25 pages of the thread, but I did see some posts from them early on.

[ducc]

Can somebody help me with all the spear parts numbers to rebuild my Trex 600 Pro with higher tail rotor speed? My goal is to make it fly with rotor speed around 2000 just to save amp:s and get longer fly time

[felborn]

Originally Posted by ducc

Can somebody help me with all the spear parts numbers to rebuild my Trex 600 Pro with higher tail rotor speed? My goal is to make it fly with rotor speed around 2000 just to save amp:s and get longer fly time

Here you go: Torque Tube Front Gear Set: H60121T, Autorotation: H60020A

Thank BlackTitanium for the info, I belive he was the first to figure this out. But if your just hovering or into very basic flying, I figure the stock tail should work okay as well at that headspeed.

[ducc]

Looks that this number don't exist H60121T should be H60121 or?

[BlackTitanium]

Originally Posted by ducc

Looks that this number don't exist H60121T should be H60121 or?

Been awhile since I bought a set, it was H60121AT, then it was H60121T.
So now, it looks like it's H60121

[tsarouxaz]

Originally Posted by raptor50luvver

So can someone from Align enlighten us with the idea of reducing the tail power on what's supposed to be a top end 3d performer?

Every other hv 600 class electric can produce stunning performance and decent duration at sensible headspeeds so who's smart idea was it to run a ridiculous headspeed and give short flight times compared to other brands of airframe.

To make the diference! Just that... They always make mistakes and overkills on their designs and people still buy Align because they are cheap. But if a company arrises that makes sensible products and is as cheap as align, then Align will... Vanish!! Anyway Everytime Align changes something, someone makes an improovement to it, but how long will we deal with Align's bad designs?

[felborn]

Originally Posted by tsarouxaz

To make the diference! Just that... They always make mistakes and overkills on their designs and people still buy Align because they are cheap. But if a company arrises that makes sensible products and is as cheap as align, then Align will... Vanish!! Anyway Everytime Align changes something, someone makes an improovement to it, but how long will we deal with Align's bad designs?

For ages, they make rock solid machines for a very decent price. Having bought and flown Align helicopters almost exlusivly for the last 5 years, I dont get what your talking about at all. I will venture into the high-end marked for the first time with the Goblin, and will see what difference that makes, but from my experience they seems to be in line with other makes like Gaui and Outrage, and they offer very decent machines at a great price.

[raptor50luvver]

Following on from my earlier posts,I have been flying the 600 pro now for a good while running the old tail gearing on 95mm tails and I love it,I still don't like the idea of such high headspeeds but I agree the machine is designed for it and either way it flies good.

More recently I have purchased a 700e v2 and that's brilliant and more recently still a 500efl pro,I am running that stock but with a v bar and it's without doubt one of the best 500class models I have ever flown.

I also have the dfc head on my 550 and the 700e and thats very good also.

So I think the moral is that some innovations or ideas won't please some fliers but others certainly will.So my message to Align is to keep developing and pushing the envelope.

[tsarouxaz]

Thinking as an engineer (Aircraft Engineer in particular), I would agree with Align having the willingness to try and design a high performance machine but I have to dissagree on how they did it.. I use align products for the last 4 years and I use their products extensively, ( motors, esc's, dozens of servos, Helicopters and starters) and I will keep prefering them, but..

1: They tried to impress with a headspeed that does not exist, a headspeed that is out of the SAFETY FACTOR (engineers ringing any bells?) of the majority of 600mm blades. Alan Szabo is sponsored, so he can run 3000rpm if he wants, he will not pay for the damage done. But for the everyday modeler that all companies rely on, it is not a risk to be taken.
2: trying to impress, they reduced the speed of the tail so it can be normal on their sujested HS. Why they did not transfer that "knowledge" on the 700? why they don't make the 700 run at 3000rpm, it would go like a rocket!...and disintergrade then..
3: EVERY other 600 on the market (take a point on the market) flies on 2100 2200 (logo for example), why the 600 pro run on 2500?
4: I want to buy a 600 pro but i CANNOT because I have to modify it, and I would not believe anyone as an engineer, feels safe turning around 60cm blades at 2500rpm. I mean it is fast enough even for a 500.

5: the Align video is fake, we are Engineers, not Lawyers for gods sake...

I bet if Align is not going to find a "fix" for it.. some one else will..

[DaveHolland]

The main take away here is that everyone was running 2000 rpm, then they bumped up to 2200 rpm, and the same thing is happening to the new generation of 2500 rpm. The physical blades are safety rated at or above 3000 rpm for a 600mm blade. They will not fail until you are over 3k. Its more of a mindset than an actual safety issue. This heli has been out for a while and people out there just grab it and run 2400-2500 and we have had no failures. The head is designed to run that rpm, the blades can handle that rpm. We need to make our minds believe. The only safety factor is that the pilot will not accept that it can run at that rpm. When it is ran at 2350 or above that tail issue is nonexistent, if people would accept the fact that it is capable with out failure then no one would complain about the tail. I run 2350 because I cant handle the collective responsiveness at 2450, not because I think my blades will fail. Yes maybe older blades would have failed, but I know Edge blades are rated at above 3000k before failure. The fix is not to run cheap blades.

[NRPY]

Align's philosophy seems to be that "higher headspeeds with less pitch" is better than "lower headspeeds with more pitch", and their latest helicopter designs incorporate this philosophy.

I tend to agree with destroyerbmx in that we just need to get our heads around this new paradigm. The 600 Pro seems to be a fairly robust helicopter. It does not need to be modified before it can be flown. In fact, the tail blowout "problem" seems to occur because people insist on running lower headspeeds, not necessarily because of a design error on Align's part.

The good thing in all of this hoopla is that there are workable options for both the high and low headspeed camps. People should not lose sight of that.

[BlackTitanium]

Originally Posted by tsarouxaz

"... 4: I want to buy a 600 pro but i CANNOT because I have to modify it, and I would not believe anyone as an engineer, feels safe turning around 60cm blades at 2500rpm. I mean it is fast enough even for a 500..."

Is swapping out the tail rotor blades and lowering the head speed really that difficult for an "Engineer"?

[airsiler]

If you don't run a gov. what curve setting do I need to get to 2350?

Thanks
Bill

[NRPY]

You would need to experiment with a tach. What throttle % would be needed is going to depend on a number of factors specific to your setup (mainly battery packs I would think). The Align manual should give you some idea where to start.

[OnTheSnap]

Sorry guys, but I simply just disagree. Running high head speeds is not free. The design as shipped is designed to run without governor at 2500-2600 headspeed. This has several pitfalls:

• Much greater wear on the model parts. Fast dampener wear.
• Excessive static current. A big reduction in flight time
• Much greater damage in crashes. Higher headspeed = more energy to destroy things
• Inconsistent headspeed throughout the flight. From start to finish there is typically a 200 RPM sag, and big bogs in power maneuvers

Simply put, governed performance at 2200-2300 pulling more pitch simply outperforms a model running fixed end points at 2500 RPM. It takes more current when it needs it. Not just hovering around burning energy. Yah you could gov at 2500, but that will take even more energy and reduce flight times even further.



I don't see any other manufacturers following the lead here. Not a single one. So at the moment, no one else is sold on this setup. All of the world class pilots winning competitions with 600 class machines run a governed 2200-2250 headspeed and just barely get their 4 minute flights as is. Yet the general population (us) are supposed to run 2500 just to fart around at the field?


Anyway, the good news is that the 600Pro is a good model, and we have learned how to adapt it to what we want. So you can decide to opt for poor fixed end point performance or the gold standard governed performance with just some tail tweaks.


As far as paradigm shifts go, high head speed isn't one of them IMO. Now double the energy density of packs and _then_ we have a paradigm shift. And running 2500 gov'd is realistic for reasonable flight times (>4m is my bar).

[Emurzion]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Sorry guys, but I simply just disagree. Running high head speeds is not free. The design as shipped is designed to run without governor at 2500-2600 headspeed. This has several pitfalls:

• Much greater wear on the model parts. Fast dampener wear.
• Excessive static current. A big reduction in flight time
• Much greater damage in crashes. Higher headspeed = more energy to destroy things
• Inconsistent headspeed throughout the flight. From start to finish there is typically a 200 RPM sag, and big bogs in power maneuvers

Simply put, governed performance at 2200-2300 pulling more pitch simply outperforms a model running fixed end points at 2500 RPM. It takes more current when it needs it. Not just hovering around burning energy. Yah you could gov at 2500, but that will take even more energy and reduce flight times even further.



I don't see any other manufacturers following the lead here. Not a single one. So at the moment, no one else is sold on this setup. All of the world class pilots winning competitions with 600 class machines run a governed 2200-2250 headspeed and just barely get their 4 minute flights as is. Yet the general population (us) are supposed to run 2500 just to fart around at the field?


Anyway, the good news is that the 600Pro is a good model, and we have learned how to adapt it to what we want. So you can decide to opt for poor fixed end point performance or the gold standard governed performance with just some tail tweaks.


As far as paradigm shifts go, high head speed isn't one of them IMO. Now double the energy density of packs and _then_ we have a paradigm shift. And running 2500 gov'd is realistic for reasonable flight times (>4m is my bar).

+1 Very well said