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Align 3GX FBL System Align 3GX FBL Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support |
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10-05-2011, 06:45 AM | #1 (permalink) |
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New 700 with 3GX and tail drifting
I have this problem pretty bad on my brand new 700e. I point out that it is brand new because it has never been crashed, no parts are bent. This thing is smooth and has no visible vibrations. I understand that there can be some high frequency stuff that I can't see. But I would consider this machine to be running well within reasonable expectations for vibes. And my tail drifts alot. If I hover for 5 sec. it will probably move about 25 deg. Enough that if I do a couple of consecutive flips or a big loop, I am compensating for the FBL system. Does anything sound wrong about that?
I have tried fixed end points, governor, different head speeds (just in case it was some resonant oscillation frequency), gains any where from 30 to 50%. The manual says to try one piece of tape and if that doesn't work, try two. I am assuming that as soon as I peel it up the first one will be garbage, so trying two will be difficult if not impossible. Suggestions?? Oh.. my setup is the latest 3Gx software installed (sorry I forgot the number), and I am running the medium profile for 700e. And the arrow on the 3Gx is pointing back towards the main shaft (some one told me it HAS to point forward, but the instructions told me otherwise). Thanks for any tips you can give, I am about to rip this off and install V-Bar But I am really trying to give 3Gx a fair chance.
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John nCPX , 130x, DJI f450 5.8 GHZ FPV, T-Rex 500ESP DS510, mini VBar, 13T T-Rex 600ESP 12s, scorpion 4025 630, VBar, DS650, DS610, 14T- T-Rex 700E V2 VBar |
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10-05-2011, 07:49 AM | #2 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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The unit may be mounted in any orientation other than on its side or on its end. This is why while in setup it allows you to reverse the counter effect of the ele. and ail. if needed.
Double check your delay setting, and also if mounted upside down(inverted) remember to reverse the "anti-torque" switch in the software. Maybe try lowering the rudder gain in the software and raising it in your tx also.
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No I didn't misspell Daneger, my name is Dane..get it? "Flyin' high again..." -Ozzy Osbourne |
10-05-2011, 08:48 AM | #3 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Hi i don't know if you have seen my post on this:
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=344686 What you describe is identical to what i've been experiencing with my new 600E Pro. I have talked to a few others on helifreak with this tail drift, but the problem doesn't seem to be widespread and so far no one has a solution. I have sent my 3GX back for testing and i will let you know how i get on. Please let me know if you find a solution! |
10-06-2011, 09:54 AM | #4 (permalink) |
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aro03,
you might want to double check your settings with the computer. I was going to try some of the things that daneger21 suggested above, when I connected it to the computer, the settings that I had previously put there were gone and it was back to what I think was default (500/600 size normal). I had previously chosen 700. I also remember when I went to do my maiden flight, that the 3gx was correcting the wrong direction, even though it was right when I set it up on the bench. So I think my settings got lost some how. I have re-installed the 700 profile and read it out just to verify. Going to the field tonight to see if it helps.
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John nCPX , 130x, DJI f450 5.8 GHZ FPV, T-Rex 500ESP DS510, mini VBar, 13T T-Rex 600ESP 12s, scorpion 4025 630, VBar, DS650, DS610, 14T- T-Rex 700E V2 VBar |
10-06-2011, 10:48 AM | #5 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Hi thanks for the suggestion, but i have checked this several times. I think the most obvious sign that something is not working correctly is the response of the tail axis to small vibrations even when the heli is on the bench. Still, i'd be interested to hear how you get on...
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10-06-2011, 08:51 PM | #6 (permalink) |
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Well, switching over to the 700 profile and adding some delay did not help. The tail is still walking. I think the next step is to try two layers of tape or some futaba tape.
Seems funny to me that I buy a complete (heli, gyro, ESC motor etc.) and have so many problems. This is all packaged and sold together. It should work with out so stinkin much trouble. I know how to build. I have built many helis over the years, and even a few FBL and 12s. So this is not a newb build issue. Urrgggg... Just venting a bit. I'm sure it will be wonderful once I get it all worked out.
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John nCPX , 130x, DJI f450 5.8 GHZ FPV, T-Rex 500ESP DS510, mini VBar, 13T T-Rex 600ESP 12s, scorpion 4025 630, VBar, DS650, DS610, 14T- T-Rex 700E V2 VBar |
10-06-2011, 09:36 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Quote:
i would try and remove all delay that how mine is setup(not that im always right), but it has helped a few others. slowly move your stick and release as soon as it starts flashing, worth a shot if you havent already. then redo your gains. have you tried changing the "anti-torque" compensation at all?...after verifing its correct compared to how your unit is mounted?
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No I didn't misspell Daneger, my name is Dane..get it? "Flyin' high again..." -Ozzy Osbourne |
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10-07-2011, 06:09 AM | #8 (permalink) |
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No wag at all, no back and forth. It just slowly moves to the left (nose right). Just baby steps, small enough that you can't see it jerking at each step. By the time I hover around 3 seconds it has rotated about 1/8 of a circle, 6 sec 1/4 etc. So if I try to do a loop that takes me 6 seconds to get around, it would done a 1/4 pirouette and I would be flying sideways. That is no way to inspire confidence in a new big heli (this is my first 700 size).
I thought you said to try to add delay. Regardless, I tried it with no delay, and with about 20% delay (it is hard to tell exactly how much). I know you can view the delay on the PC afterwards, but I did the delay at the field last night and haven't connected it since. I have not changed the anti torque. I am mounted upright and I thought that was for inverted mount only. Now that I am thinking about it, I am intrigued by the idea of "anti torque". If the blades are spinning clockwise, the torque would be counterclockwise trying to push the tail to the right. So it would have too much anti torque compensation if it is moving to the left, is that right? And if my memory is right, it is already at zero. Why can't it be like the good old (expensive) heading gold gyros? Just point it at a heading and it doesn't move unless it is told too! All these fancy settings seems like they are using cheaper sensors and trying to compensate for them with programming.
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John nCPX , 130x, DJI f450 5.8 GHZ FPV, T-Rex 500ESP DS510, mini VBar, 13T T-Rex 600ESP 12s, scorpion 4025 630, VBar, DS650, DS610, 14T- T-Rex 700E V2 VBar |
10-07-2011, 11:00 AM | #9 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2011
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I'm having the exact same issue on my 600 Pro, nose right. Tried many different tapes, nothing was better or worse than anything else.
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Blade 450X, 360cfx 6s, Trex 500 EFL Pro |
10-07-2011, 11:13 AM | #10 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Well i sent my 3GX in for testing and the shop mounted it directly on a trex 550E. They didn't change any software settings at all. I wasn't there, but i'm told it performed perfectly in flight.
All i can do now is take my 600E Pro to the shop and have them test my 3GX on my heli. I have no idea what the problem is. The only thing i haven't tried is swapping my other electronics (TX, BEC, RX, ESC). |
10-07-2011, 11:14 AM | #11 (permalink) |
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rknaub,
What did you do? Do you just fly it like that? I can fly mine like that, but it is no fun correcting the tail constantly. And forget about doing multiple consecutive flips or tic tocs. Just no good at all.
__________________
John nCPX , 130x, DJI f450 5.8 GHZ FPV, T-Rex 500ESP DS510, mini VBar, 13T T-Rex 600ESP 12s, scorpion 4025 630, VBar, DS650, DS610, 14T- T-Rex 700E V2 VBar |
10-07-2011, 10:17 PM | #12 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2011
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I rebuilt the entire tail, using two torque tube bearings instead of one, balanced entire tail and head, blades track perfect, main gears replaced, all of this even though the heli is relatively new with zero crashes, and maybe 20-30 flights on the heli, but only about 7-10 on the entire brand new FBL head. Tail was extremely solid with the flybar and quark gyro. New main shaft bearings and one way bearing as well. Using one piece of align tape, and Leon's settings. 105 tail blades, 2200 head speed, dx6i. Was thinking about trying some gel tape and a strap, but was thinking more about picking up the beast x at my LHS. Tired of this problem.
--- I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=39.645327,-104.764157
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Blade 450X, 360cfx 6s, Trex 500 EFL Pro |
10-08-2011, 05:21 AM | #13 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Go into the "movement speed" screen in the software and make sure your "piroutte rate" is reading 0 when the stick is at center. (this will show you if it is a subtrim problem)
Look at the setting display screen and make sure your rudder gain is about 45. (gotta have enough gain to hold the tail) Check your left and right rudder travel limit and see that they are between 60-120. (gyros are finiky about travel limits) That should do it...
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LowerHeli.com T-Rex Kits, Parts, and Upgrades sales@lowerheli.com "Fly Lower!" |
10-08-2011, 03:45 PM | #14 (permalink) |
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piro rate = -459 - 0 - 469 (always goes right back to zero when I release the stick)
rud gain = 51 (I have tried from 30 all the way to 100) trav. limit = L-70 R+70 Here are all of the rudder parameters. Maybe you will see something there.. rud control rate 60 rudder total gain adj 70 rudder lock gain 70 rudder stop gain 70 piro comp. 50 rudder speed up 0 anti torque 0 norm firmware 1.1
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John nCPX , 130x, DJI f450 5.8 GHZ FPV, T-Rex 500ESP DS510, mini VBar, 13T T-Rex 600ESP 12s, scorpion 4025 630, VBar, DS650, DS610, 14T- T-Rex 700E V2 VBar |
10-08-2011, 08:50 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
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Quote:
piro rate = -430 - 0 - 430 rud gain = 44 trav. limit = L-51 R+46 rud control rate 75 rudder total gain adj 70 rudder lock gain 65 rudder stop gain 60 piro comp. 60 rudder speed up 0 anti torque 0 (reverse - mounted inverted) firmware 1.1
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No I didn't misspell Daneger, my name is Dane..get it? "Flyin' high again..." -Ozzy Osbourne |
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10-09-2011, 06:45 PM | #16 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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I would try going back through the tail gyro setup in the manual.
Your rudder travel limits look low to me. (Make sure to double check the rudder directiona after you are done!)
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LowerHeli.com T-Rex Kits, Parts, and Upgrades sales@lowerheli.com "Fly Lower!" |
10-09-2011, 08:00 PM | #17 (permalink) |
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If your reffering to my travel limits, my rudder endpoints in my tx are set at 90% before i did the gyro setup. so maybe thats messing with the numbers some how.
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No I didn't misspell Daneger, my name is Dane..get it? "Flyin' high again..." -Ozzy Osbourne |
10-10-2011, 03:43 AM | #18 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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I was reffering to the tail gyro setup where you move the tail servo until it buzzes and then back off a little.
- not on your setup dane...on jharv's setup. It is strange that the endpoints on jharv's bird are 70/70 I have never seen them equal before...what are the odds? Yours are 46/51 mine are 86//101
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LowerHeli.com T-Rex Kits, Parts, and Upgrades sales@lowerheli.com "Fly Lower!" Last edited by Lower!; 10-10-2011 at 03:49 AM.. Reason: error |
10-10-2011, 06:12 AM | #19 (permalink) |
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OK, here is how I got where I am..
Per the manual I set the tail servo to 90 deg. and centered the tail slider mechanically. The radio was at its default 100% rudder travel. Using the limit adjust on the 3gx, I pushed left until the servo went all the way to the end, it never bound, but looked like it was right at the end of the tails available space for travel. Pushed it to the right, same thing, all the way out and no binding. I thought that was odd, normally I have to stop or it will bind. So I think that Align just did a great job of giving me the right servo/horn combo and matching that to the available travel. So when I go to maiden it, when I test the piro rate, it is spinning FAST. My previous experience with HH gyros is that the physical travel is controlled by the limit adjust on the gyro, and the rudder travel in the radio controls the speed of the piro. So I turned down the rudder travel in the radio (thinking the limit adjust on the 3gx would maintain the physical end point). And it worked, the piro slowed down. Since I did them equally, that is how I ended up at 70 - 70. But now that I see I can adjust the piro rate in the software, I will go ahead and put the radio back to 100 -100 and redo the tail setup. This time using the software to slow it down. I am pretty sure I still have full travel, but I am at work now and can't check. And it does not matter. I am will to give this or pretty much anything else a try. Thanks for the help!
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John nCPX , 130x, DJI f450 5.8 GHZ FPV, T-Rex 500ESP DS510, mini VBar, 13T T-Rex 600ESP 12s, scorpion 4025 630, VBar, DS650, DS610, 14T- T-Rex 700E V2 VBar |
10-10-2011, 02:59 PM | #20 (permalink) |
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OK this is weird, I just went to adjust my rudder end points again, and this time it was able to reach a point where it would bind. But not terribly further than before...
So this time it set at -76 +80. And some one else pointed out to me that I have to wait for the red light when setting the end points, so maybe I did not wait long enough last time. I am off to test it. Hopefully it was that simple.
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John nCPX , 130x, DJI f450 5.8 GHZ FPV, T-Rex 500ESP DS510, mini VBar, 13T T-Rex 600ESP 12s, scorpion 4025 630, VBar, DS650, DS610, 14T- T-Rex 700E V2 VBar |
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