Is the MCPx like this?

[Undef]

Hi Everyone,
My heli experience is pretty limited (Blade CX2, MSR, MSRX, Phoenix (where I mostly fly a Blade SR)), so I've got a pretty limited set of 'real world experience'. My question mostly revolves around the flybarless implementation of the MSRX.... Is the MCPX like that? Meaning any yaw movement centers the swash causing unexpected movement (either forward right or backward left)?

Flying basically ANYTHING in Phoenix, if I set a heli on a path forward and yaw left or right it just piros and keeps on course. If I do that with the MSRX it abruptly stops and starts doing 'something'.

Thanks!
Undef

[BigRHS]

The MCPX is a really great little bird ( IMHO ). But it is very quick and you have to be constantly making adjustments to keep it in control. Once you give it input to go in a certain heading, it will remain on that heading until you make another adjustment to it's flight path.
The MSRX does that to a extent, but nowhere near as quick as the MCPX.
You have to learn that it takes small movements of the sticks to get the movement of the heli you want. Most if not all flybarless helicopters are that way, which is what makes them so nimble and fly so sweet !
The flybars help with keeping a helicopter stable while hovering, but the same thing that helps keep the helicopter stay stable in a hover can also work against you when you want to do 3D or FFF or even scale flying.
Of course, there are some flybared helicopters out there that can do anything a flybarless heli can do........with the right pilot......lol
The heli has to work to overcome the inertia of the flybar, which is something it doesn't have to do with a flybarless heli.
But i am not very good at explaining what i mean so i hope that somebody may be able to help you a little more then i did.
Sorry

[Undef]

Thanks for the welcome! I'm specifically interested in what happens when you turn the rudder left or right while in a stable hover. Will it piro around itself more or less in one spot? I realize that it won't be 'perfect', but is it similar to the MSRX where a left rudder command produces a pronounced back left motion where a right rudder produces a pronounced forward right motion.

Thanks again,
undef

[LokiNexus]

Originally Posted by Undef

Thanks for the welcome! I'm specifically interested in what happens when you turn the rudder left or right while in a stable hover. Will it piro around itself more or less in one spot? I realize that it won't be 'perfect', but is it similar to the MSRX where a left rudder command produces a pronounced back left motion where a right rudder produces a pronounced forward right motion.

Thanks again,
undef

In my experience the mcpx WILL turn on a dime and not do the roll back and left thing that the msrx does. But you have to know your controls because the mcpx us alot faster and less forgiving bird. Example= yesterday I had my mcpx in a nice hover , looked diwn at my timer and before I could look back up she was in the dirt. Now keep in mind my mcpx is brushless so faster then stock but the point remains true.

So bottom line is no the mcpx WILL not wonder away like the msrx does. But takes alot more concentration ti keep under control .

In fact my mcpx WILL piro full 360 while in forward flight without any sudden out of control sliding that the msrx does.

[FSTTOYS]

Much Much quicker, faster. less durable as head speed is greater. however you can dumb it down or handi cap it. I dont believe in that tho. msr x is awesome heli to learn on and when you can control that without thinking, then step up to mcp x, or the 130 if it is out at that time. once you can fly the mcp x you can fly anything from there on. the bigger it is the easier it is to fly. size + weight = stable. happy flying.

[cp11]

No, the mCPX doesn't do that But the mSRX is great for zipping around the house and running into things and people, which I wouldn't recommend with the mCPX. Just give it some time and you'll automatically compensate for its quirks.

[ronj]

The msrx piros need more cyclic help. Once you get a hang of how to do little cyclic movements to get what you want out of your msrx, it is time to move on to the mcpx. I found it to be faster, but piros were less complicated, but keeping it in control takes more concentration.

The msrx is a great lead in to the mcpx. Personally I found the step to the mcpx to be an easier one than from my coaxial to the msrx.

[plexus]

I fly the mSRx, mCPx and a T250SE. no 3D but getting into fast sporty flying. (well, not 3D on purpose )... anyway i would say the mSRx is an mCX2 on steroids... an mCPx is like an mSRx on steroids... and, you guessed it, a 250 is like a crazy ass supped up superhero of an mCPx.

Each step up is an increase in speed, power, agility and the need for more and better skills.

But I will say, with the skills, an mCPx can be flown to be more agile and predictable than an mSRx which as a limit for what it can do. you can push the mCPx more than an mSRx in a big way in all regards. same with the jump up to a 250. a 250 in governor mode is to power like collective is to FB vs FBL.

[merit]

The mcpx does not piro completely "flat" like a flybar'd heli (like the msr or 450 3D). However it is much better than the msrx in that regard, it doesn't have that pronounced forward or backward movement when you yaw it.

[Talesin]

No, the mCPX responds properly to yaw control inputs. It won't spin on a dime for days like the mSR (non-X), but if you turf it, it's your own fault... not like with the glaring design flaw inherent in the mSRX. I'd call it vastly superior for any number of reasons.

Additionally, some people are taking the mSRX blades and modifying them to fit on the mCPX, making it MUCH slower and gentler, for training purposes. I've had my students do that and skip the mSRX and the bad cyclic habits it teaches, if they can't afford to part together an mSR for FP training, and set up their TX to 'pretend' the mCPX is a FP SR heli.

Still working to come up with a better solution for the mSRX's rudder issues with my own, but it does more harm than good as-is when you're first stepping into single-rotor flight.. when you most NEED a dependable bird that will react reliably to the same control inputs the same way every time, that you don't have to 'chase' with cyclic to varying degrees each time just to keep it under control.

[danb1974]

That's the worst part - hard to predict where rudder will take you because it depends on current swash position. Even for small rudder inputs, the swash will reset and your flight path is no more.

[Undef]

Yes, thanks. I totally agree that the original MSR was a way better trainer than the MSRx. Now I don't know what to recommend to friends. Certainly I won't recommend the MSRx and the SR120 is too big (fragile). I am just glad I had the chance to learn on the MSR because I really think I would have gotten very discouraged by the MSRx and given up.

I really dig your idea about the MCPx using the MSRx blades... I wonder why they made the AS3X work differently for the MSRx. I'd buy a 'fixed' v2 one in a second.

[BigRHS]

But you know, if you have a DX6i or any TX that is programmable you can add a couple of mixes that will make the MSRX act the way it should have from the factory.
No........you shouldn't have to add mixes to make it fly the way it should, but it is something you can do.
Now I know that most beginners don't have a programmable TX to start off with, but i wouldn't recommend the MSRX to a beginner anyway.
But once you get the TX, then the MSRX becomes a very good little helicopter, and it helped me a lot to be prepared for the MCPX.
But you do need the mixes to help, especially with the left rudder inputs !
But there is a thread over on the MSRX board about the mixes and and a couple of different ones to try.
But it's definitely not for a beginner.

[ronj]

Originally Posted by BigRHS

But you know, if you have a DX6i or any TX that is programmable you can add a couple of mixes that will make the MSRX act the way it should have from the factory.
No........you shouldn't have to add mixes to make it fly the way it should, but it is something you can do.
Now I know that most beginners don't have a programmable TX to start off with, but i wouldn't recommend the MSRX to a beginner anyway.
But once you get the TX, then the MSRX becomes a very good little helicopter, and it helped me a lot to be prepared for the MCPX.
But you do need the mixes to help, especially with the left rudder inputs !
But there is a thread over on the MSRX board about the mixes and and a couple of different ones to try.
But it's definitely not for a beginner.

+1, but get the dx6i and program the mixes before you get too far along with the msrx. I fought mine for a month or so before getting a dx6i. I programmed in some of the suggested mixes from this forum and it just got worse. I was better to leave it with no mixes or expo, because that is what I had become used to.

But the dx6 is still a much better radio than the rtf version and it will carry you into the mcpx and onward. And remember, NO TRIMS.

[Blade Scraper]

Originally Posted by Undef

Yes, thanks. I totally agree that the original MSR was a way better trainer than the MSRx. Now I don't know what to recommend to friends. Certainly I won't recommend the MSRx and the SR120 is too big (fragile). I am just glad I had the chance to learn on the MSR because I really think I would have gotten very discouraged by the MSRx and given up.

I haven't found the 120 SR to be at all "fragile." The 3 channel co-axial, that I moved up to it from, had rudder and forward/backward cyclic on the same right stick, which made the transition to a mode 2 FP heli particularly difficult - I had to unlearn the improper control habit that I'd developed from the co-axial, as well as the much more precise movements needed on the sticks.

So I've crashed my 120 SR a lot (and into trees and fences as well as grass). I've found that its held up very well to the torture I've subjected it to, and its only been grounded (so far) by a broken tail rotor. That was on day 7 of flying it, and I expect the replacement tomorrow. Other damage was minor and easily "fixed" with a bit of CA and/or packing tape.

By comparison, my mSRX, which I had only that week of FP experience with when I got it, is grounded on day 2 with a broken blade grip. My first day with it, I also broke the landing gear posts and a clip holding the tail fin on, but created fixes for both that kept it flyable - up until the blade grip break.

With that bit of experience with both, I give the edge to the 120 SR as the superior trainer, because its pretty stable with its flybar design, is not at all "fragile," and its larger size makes it more visible to easily see its orientation. Part costs for the mSRX and 120 SR are also similar.

That's not a knock on the mSRX though, which I still love despite the tough breaks my first 2 days with it (and in fairness to it, where I'm still so new to FP its been crashed hard and frequently) and which I don't consider fragile - though the design of the blade grips and skid mounts do seem pretty weak and are replacement parts I think I'll be buying plenty of.

Its twitchier than the 120 SR, and has some quirks, but I still find it a blast to fly and its small size does make it far more suitable for indoor flying than the 120 SR (I'm flying both exclusively outdoors right now, for the extra forgiveness that grass crashes adds, but the mSRX I bought to fly indoors once I become more adept at flying it).

[Diogenes]

Originally Posted by Undef

Yes, thanks. I totally agree that the original MSR was a way better trainer than the MSRx. Now I don't know what to recommend to friends. Certainly I won't recommend the MSRx and the SR120 is too big (fragile). I am just glad I had the chance to learn on the MSR because I really think I would have gotten very discouraged by the MSRx and given up.

I really dig your idea about the MCPx using the MSRx blades... I wonder why they made the AS3X work differently for the MSRx. I'd buy a 'fixed' v2 one in a second.

They're still all over FeeBay.....I just bought a NEW one minus the 5/1 about a week ago. Had an extra 5/1 in my parts lot.

I still use the MSR for orientation training....... the msrx is too zippy for my small house

[Talesin]

Originally Posted by BigRHS

But you know, if you have a DX6i or any TX that is programmable you can add a couple of mixes that will make the MSRX act the way it should have from the factory.

No, you can't. You can put in some mixes that reduce the misbehaviour, but you can't mix it out to perform like it SHOULD. It's a band-aid; a given mix only really works for a given turn rate, and will not apply the same way if the heli is in forward/back/side flight due to the altered orientation of the rotor disc (see my other thread for discussion about the root issue, and why the MMM and mixes are just jury-rigs instead of addressing the actual problem). It also makes either piros or FF suffer... I tried working around that initially by binding my mixes to the GYRO switch, so I literally had a piro mode. Which is stupid that it has to be done. Plus wobbled and pitched up and down all over the place anyway, even if it kept its position relative to the ground.

Originally Posted by Undef

Yes, thanks. I totally agree that the original MSR was a way better trainer than the MSRx. Now I don't know what to recommend to friends.

I have been having my trainees buy a used mCPX and DX6i. I'll set them up with a flat pitch curve and linear throttle (approximately 60-85% on pitch and a reduced throttle max so their stick is in ROUGHLY the CP hover point for when they make the full transition, and they'll have some muscle memory). It 'pretends' to be a FP heli in this manner, allowing an easier learning curve. I still have to buy a spare set of mSRX blades and mod them myself to test out how they perform, as of now my trainees stick with the stock (or colored) eFlite bullet blades.

Originally Posted by koi-fish

They're still all over FeeBay.....I just bought a NEW one minus the 5/1 about a week ago. Had an extra 5/1 in my parts lot.

I still use the MSR for orientation training....... the msrx is too zippy for my small house

Yeah, usually if someone isn't going to be happy with the mCPX or wants an actual FP heli (or for puttering around in the house; I still use mine to do funnels in the living room when I'm bored and feel like flying but don't want to go outside), I'll (have them) buy a used mSR, or a for-parts mSR from Hobb-e-mart on eBay with a bad 5-in-1 board, then a replacement 5-in-1 for $30 and just swap the boards. Takes all of five minutes tops, and leaves them with possibly THE best FP trainer heli around, as well as a lazy-day bumblebee.

Doesn't hurt that it gets 5-6 minute flight times on a TINY 120mAh pack (which is one more reason it's great for training), and you can toss on mCPX skids, a 200mAh mCPX battery and use the charging lead adapter to plug it into the mSR. Bumps that up to 7-8 minute flight times, even if it handles like a fat little piggy at that point with the extra weight, and doubtless over-stresses the motor with how much throttle it takes just to lift it off the ground. The 150mAh extended cell pack is a much nicer medium at a solid 6-7 minutes, and is much more nimble than with the bigger battery. Haven't gone with any aftermarket hi-cap batteries yet.

[jonbailie]

Bottom line, the mcpx (collective) will be more precise, agile, and faster than the msrx (fixed), but will need more corrections from the radio sticks to achieve the same stability as a consequence.

Another bottom line: you will not look back once you go collective

[chuck-o]

My two cents?
The 120SR is a dog. Too big to fly indoors anywhere besides a gymnasium and to underpowered for outdoor flight in any wind whatsoever. The main blades fracture on impact because the plastic is too brittle, battery trays will break just from installing batteries. Landing gear breaks periodically (two weeks flying every day was the longest I had a set of landing gear last.
The wiring on the tail motor is ridiculously fragile and can short out on the slightest disturbance which can (and will) result in several seemingly unrelated electronics problems such as overheating of the motors, unwanted throttle spikes, etc.
The last time I flew mine it went dead twenty feet up and plummetted to the ground.
I haven't bothered repairing it yet.
For your first single rotor fixed pitch I recommend a smaller lighter bird.
The msrx is a much more reliable, durable, and capable flyer indoors and out. The only thing I have actually broken on it (after hundreds of flights and many dozens of crashes)
Are the blade grips.
I disagree that the swash actually resets on rudder input. If it does then it is resetting FTP the exact same position every time making servo linkage adjustments possible in the first place. I think when we adjust the linkages we are simply minimizing the effect of the natural angle of the "disc" to the carriage beneath. The msr actually had the drive shaft itself tilted to compensate.
For newcomers to this heli?
Don't dial in a bunch of expo thinking you will "soften" the way this thing handles.
All you do with expo is in effect slow YOUR reactions and inputs.
IMHO anything more than ten percent expo will create so much dead stick around the middle that by the time you make a correction the helicopter already needs correcting again and you find yourself chasing it into the toilet bowl.
I have only been flying helis for a few months but already fly at negative ten on all expo for this thing.
I do have an mcpx now and I do have something to say to those who recommend it over the msrx for indoor training.
Are you people high?
The msrx I have flown right smack into the middle of my 46" flat screen TV. No problem for the heli or the TV.
It has gotten tangled in the wife's hair without harm.
The very first battery I put in the mcpx it leapt back at me and sliced the tip of my nose open.
Far more speed and power a novice can injure bystanders and break video monitors.
My mcpx is relegated to outdoor flight only, at least until I have far more control.

[Talesin]

Originally Posted by chuck-o

My two cents?
The 120SR is a dog. Too big to fly indoors anywhere besides a gymnasium and to underpowered for outdoor flight in any wind whatsoever. The main blades fracture on impact because the plastic is too brittle, battery trays will break just from installing batteries. Landing gear breaks periodically (two weeks flying every day was the longest I had a set of landing gear last.

Agreed. The 120SR can't handle wind as an FP, but is too big to fly indoors for more than basic hovering unless you have an ENORMOUS living room. Hopefully the 130X will address this; have to see once it's out though.

I do have an mcpx now and I do have something to say to those who recommend it over the msrx for indoor training.
Are you people high?
...
The very first battery I put in the mcpx it leapt back at me and sliced the tip of my nose open.
Far more speed and power a novice can injure bystanders and break video monitors.
My mcpx is relegated to outdoor flight only, at least until I have far more control.

That's user error, and not knowing how to set up the mCPX to pretend to be a FP heli for training purposes. So... user error again. Don't blame the nail gun if you staple your hand to the desk, especially so if you weren't being extra-careful with a new, unfamiliar piece of hardware. That said, outdoor flight and safe distance IS recommended while you're getting a handle on it. Basic common-sense precaution for *any* new heli. Same, when flying ANY heli indoors, draping a towel over any TVs is just a common-sense basic precaution. Even if the mSRX might not crack the screen, even a little Syma 107G can leave a deep scratch/scuff in the plastic topcoat.

Back on the mCPX; with a computerized TX, you can set a flat pitch curve somewhere between 60-85% (as stated in my last post) and control it purely with throttle. For more stability, reduce pitch and increase throttle used. It'll make cyclic response stronger (more 'twitchy') but can reduce drift and wobble significantly. It's what I do with my trainees who can only afford one heli (as opposed to getting a used mSR... a vastly superior to the mSRX and sadly discontinued trainer heli), as the mSRX is too deeply flawed for me to recommend to anyone... especially those just learning single-rotor flight.
Swapping the two so they are controlling lift purely with pitch is the next step (set a 0-70 throttle curve from the bottom to 25% points, then a flat 70 from 25% to top, with the pitch curve again set up to mimic the full CP hover point and closer response to the 'full CP' setting and a little negative pitch below mid-stick) and allows for easier flight with wind.
After that, turn 'em loose with the manual default settings. Usually only takes a few packs to adjust to the sharper throttle response from there. Then reduce the expo/increase the DR maximums until they have the full capabilities of the heli available. Takes a month or two, but it's the fastest bootstrap once they get orientations down with a coaxial (or the mSR).