Question about Stock motor in Logo 800 Xtreeme

[faisalmalik]

Hello
My setup for logo 800 is stock motor with scorpion 160 Commander ESC having 19t pinion. At 85% max throttle curve which is the limit by scorpion ESCs, I have managed to get max HS of 1826, which I feel is way too less for me (may be due to my novice cyclic). This is the max tacked speed I could get whereas Mr Mel's calc states that around 2056 HS can be achieved at 85% curve. To cut it short, please suggest max head speed remaining in safer limits because Mikado suggests not to exceed 1800RPM. Secondly please suggest any good Xnova motor which can considerably boost up the head speed to around 2000 with my present setup.
Thanks

[DCflyer]

I believe you already have a thread on this subject.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=746161

What other information do you require?


In terms of your headspeed being too low, did you properly calibrate the Scorpion ESC so that it reads low and high throttle correctly? Every ESC must be calibrated this way. If not done, the ESC may not recognize maximum throttle and could possibly exhibit the symptoms, like lower headspeeds, you are seeing.

Typically, the KV of motors does vary a little bit. For example, the factory 380Kv motor may actually be 389Kv or perhaps 375Kv. Its not always exact. Therefore, Mr. Mel's headspeed calculator may not always be dead accurate to real world scenarios, but it should be close. Not off by 200+rpm like you're saying.

I would first try recalibrating the ESC for low and high throttle. After that I would take another headspeed measurment.

It is good to try and troubleshoot an issue and really understand it before throwing money at it only to have the same problem. What if the problem is actually your controller and not the motor? There's $400 down the drain.

All that being said, if Xnova is what you're looking at, the XTS 4535 450Kv I recommended in your other thread would be the one I go with. With 8mm shaft. Very powerful and, with the higher Kv, you could probably drop to a 18T pinion which would be a cooler running, more efficient setup that will provide better use of the motor's torque capabilities as well.

[Helimaster1]

Go for Xnova 50-450 Tareq Edition

Nothing better than that in my opinion

[faisalmalik]

Originally Posted by DCflyer

I believe you already have a thread on this subject.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=746161

What other information do you require?


In terms of your headspeed being too low, did you properly calibrate the Scorpion ESC so that it reads low and high throttle correctly? Every ESC must be calibrated this way. If not done, the ESC may not recognize maximum throttle and could possibly exhibit the symptoms, like lower headspeeds, you are seeing.

Typically, the KV of motors does vary a little bit. For example, the factory 380Kv motor may actually be 389Kv or perhaps 375Kv. Its not always exact. Therefore, Mr. Mel's headspeed calculator may not always be dead accurate to real world scenarios, but it should be close. Not off by 200+rpm like you're saying.

I would first try recalibrating the ESC for low and high throttle. After that I would take another headspeed measurment.

It is good to try and troubleshoot an issue and really understand it before throwing money at it only to have the same problem. What if the problem is actually your controller and not the motor? There's $400 down the drain.

All that being said, if Xnova is what you're looking at, the XTS 4535 450Kv I recommended in your other thread would be the one I go with. With 8mm shaft. Very powerful and, with the higher Kv, you could probably drop to a 18T pinion which would be a cooler running, more efficient setup that will provide better use of the motor's torque capabilities as well.

Thanks for your reply and reminding me of an earlier thread. Actually it has been a continuous process of trying to bring improvement in my heli. In my initial setup I used YGE 200 which I got rid of after trying hard to get the matter solved. I know you guys love that esc but I won't lol. It is only after that I installed scorpion commander believing it could some miracle in effort to find the sweet spot. I've repeatedly done the throttle calibrations and gov store. After that with the help of my friend checked the HS which I mentioned earlier. So nothing near Mel calculations. I had your suggestion in mind regarding changing the pinion but irony is that 18t is no where to be found or is back order since long on max sites. Therefore I thought to ask again for an opinion about motor before dumping this heli for good.

Galaxy Note 5

[ah_liang]

This baby is a battery killer. I tried a 4535 500 kV scorpion in my previous setup and it killed two 7s after I tried to fly it like a 700. Have u watch this before?

Logo Xxtreme can smack... (4 min 59 sec)

[faisalmalik]

Cannot see the video. Probably corrupted. Kindly send again

Galaxy Note 5

[Raptorapture]

Video managed to play fine for me.

Very timely info from ah_liang, the stock 5035 helps in two ways when it comes to not burning up your lipo's. First is a large motor ie high torque ensuring that the current doesn't shoot up due to being too small a motor for the job. Second is a low current wind, ie multi strand, keeping the Peak currents lower.

I would suggest if going for a more powerful motor to go at least 4540. A number have been sold as the killer solution. I have yet to test the load created but I have two on standby with 1.6 and 1.7mm winds which I'm dying to test out sometime.

Of course you could always rewind your 5035 with a higher kv and maybe go with a higher current capability ie single strand. However, I'd research what is the recommended size of wire for that motor and your use as it appears to have not much data around rewinding it. I'd be thinking in the 1.4 to 1.5mm range.

On the kv mismatch, I've had the same experience with a rewound Pyro 800 which was 200 rpm below expected when on a Kosmik. Some was attributed to which ESC and the rest maybe was related to throttle end points, never did resolve that.

Thinking about this a bit further, the fastest way to solve this although possibly as much or more expensive is to switch to 16S which will give you over 10% uplift in rpm. However, I don't know if the 5035 will happily run on 16S. The most likely reason not is rpm of the motor but I think that at 380kv it's not going to be going that fast. A number of people switched to 16S I believe to support a higher rpm but don't know if they stuck with stock 5035.

[faisalmalik]

One of my friend suggests
Xnova 50-530KV 10P Tareq Edition Brushless Motor 8mm-61mm Shaft B. Yet another and less expensive option with me is xnova 4535-460kv. Please comment

Galaxy Note 5

[Raptorapture]

At first glance I thought perfect. However, then I checked a bit.

Not enough info available to determine if you're going down a path that may lead to some misery. Firstly, wire size isn't given, although they boast going to 2.0mm which in your case would not be a good thing. The thing about that motor that worries me is it almost has the same specs as the Speed edition.

The 450kv version looks better suited but it has even less info available. It would be a nice match without replacing the pinion. People replacing the 5035 with the 4540 were going 450kv if i remember correctly. Going 530kv means your pinion is going to have to be changed or you're going to be in probably an inefficient motor rpm band forget about the ESC which will need to have free wheeling available and active. TBH I think your ESC is not sized for these motors. I'd suggest a 200A ESC of which I'm partial to the Kosmik. One of the sites selling the Xnova's mentioned over 200A for 15 secs. You may not hit that but then again you never know.

Having said all that, this hobby wouldn't be fun unless we had some fun. I'm interested to know what path you take.

[DCflyer]

You need to be very aware of the Kv of the motor you choose. The Tareq 530Kv is way too high a Kv for the Logo's gearing options on 14S. Run it in the calculator and see what you get.

I would stick to 450-460 Kv as the maximum for this machine. That will work fine with a 17-18T pinion if you can source it.

As mentioned above, there is also a 450Kv 50xx Tareq edition if you wanted to go that route.

However, like said above, you are going to be straining the 160A ESC on a motor like the Tareq edition i'd imagine. It depends on how you fly - if you are a sport pilot you should be ok, but if you are a proficient 3D pilot you are going to be pulling some big amps.

Also, keep in mind that "Speed edition" motors like the Tareq motors are wound with large wire specifically to handle large currents for speed runs. If you don't fly very very hard, you really don't need a motor that powerful. All you're going to be doing at that point is drawing unnecessary amperage.

Better to stick to something with a smaller wind, like 1.5-1.7mm like the 4535's. Its still going to be massive power, but better suited for a 3D flying style. Not speed.

[rcmarty]

I run my 800 at 1850 for the faster 3d stuff. I find it quick for such a large heli.

What are you finding lacking that hopefully 2000 rpm would fix ?

When I first got mine in the air ( logo XX 5.2/3 pro software ) I felt it was a bit sluggish in that I had to give large poking inputs to get a quick movement out of it.
I did up the headspeed hoping for a faster cyclic response. It helped only a little.

I did end up increasing the main rotor gain (10-15 I recall ) and upped the tail piro to my taste ( 15-20 I recall ) and that make a huge difference in overall flight responses.

Another thing to consider is that this big girl isn't a SAB crack smack heli. Smooth to mildly quick inputs will make it go where you want to but in a smooth and tracked path (make you look good ). To get the aggressive 3d lock and pop stuff you'll need more agility and sharper larger inputs to make it jump.

Of course there are physical limits , and this big girl is only going to jump so fast.

I'd also think 2000 rpm would make for a short flight , I'm at 1850 rpm on 14s5000 45c packs only gives me 4:30. If I have a hard flight in the first 2-3 mins I take it easy on the last 1-2 min.

Martin

[faisalmalik]

A very well and targeted response to my problem indeed. Thanks Martin. I have somewhat the same issue. You see I'm not that expert and experienced 3d guy but I still try and get my tastes of tic tocs and full collectives etc on my Goblins. I know that this big thing won't be that responsive but that's the reason why I'm looking for a most suited setup and limits where I can get a much closer feel possible . What I've now done is increased the p and I gain from stock to a value 7 for both. Not yet done the test flight. Will upload results soon. Kindly also suggest if it's good to increase the paddle sim value or fiddle with any other parameters?

Galaxy Note 5

[rcmarty]

I'm not much of a vbar expert , wish I knew more but I don't

I found the stock XX tune quite good , I prefer a rather fast tail so I bumped that up quite a bit.

Other than that I brought up the agility on the main rotor.

For example. (before I bumped main)

I'd be coming straight down towards ground (stall turn or something) and I'd give a sharp back elevator. It felt like it was a delayed signal , I traveled a good 4-5 ft more than I had in mind. After the bump in agility it was much more of an instant response.

I feel I'm getting all I can out of it with my getting better cyclic management. I get loud blade barks (stock 813 edge) on large sharp inputs , I can hear the motor load up also.
I try to keep them quick and not hold large amounts of pitch after a hard cyclic input.

I've watched kyle dahl fly his 700 and he has a way of making what seems like a lot of extra power. I know it's a cyclic management , just knowing when to poke pitch and or cyclic and when not to. I feel sometime I just reply on the power system to muscle or plow thru.

I'm running a stock 800xx combo - yge 160 , 5035-380 scorpion , 18t I recall , gens ace 5000 45c and older thor 45c 5000 , vbar blueline running 6.0 on VBC.
I have collective pitch set to 12 or 12.5 which I try not to use very often. I save the top end for an extended auto. Likewise on my 700xx I top out at 14 pitch.

Might consider some tinkering before spending on a new motor. Might save some bucks.


I did like how fast the goblins were, just for me the tail isn't what I wanted. Goblins are a great crack smack box heli (squirrel on crack we say ) but carry a bunch of speed and put tail 90 to the wind and your going to see some major tail chatter. My 7/800XX tail will howl good but never shake.
I had a g770 converted to comp , 120 tails , 14s 4400 , 4530-450le , kosmic , 25t speed up tail pulley and no go on tail for my big air tail work.
I tried my best box smack (nasty) and tail was substantially better.

Martin