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Old 03-15-2009, 05:14 PM   #1
Wogboy
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Default Logo 500 economics

G'day,

I've been following the Logo threads for a while, and am pretty much sold on the 400 Vbar as my next heli. The 450 has been great, but it's time to go bigger! My main reasons for wanting a bigger heli are that it's easier to see, and secondly for the improved handling. I would like to get the biggest heli I can afford (and can afford to crash) and had ruled out the 500 due to the cost. It's substantially bigger and would be nice and easy to see, but batteries and blades are my main concerns.

Since I started using the Zippy H on my 450 with good results, I have been considering that the 500 may be a viable option after all if using their 6S 5000 packs. So my question is - anyone out there using Zippy packs on their 500 and how do they perform? They may be cheap to buy, but I suspect they won't last the cycles of the major brands. I will see how they go on the 450.

Since the difference between parts for the 400/500 is not much in the scheme of things, for me, crash costs come down to blades. The big name blades in the 500 - 550 range are going to be out of my budget for crashing, so has anyone had any good experience with cheaper blades? For example, SWE make some 550mm FRP blades for around 46 USD, and CF for 70 USD. I don't want to skimp on blades as I know Vbar needs good blades, but I wonder if there is a cheaper product which work well.

Thank you for reading all this. My concern is that I don't want to go to the expense of a 500 to skimp on some of the parts which mean the most - blades and packs. I also don't want to own a heli which I'm too afraid to crash. If there are cheaper alternatives to these big ticket items which work well, I might consider the 500, if not the 400 with all the right stuff is my best option.

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Old 03-15-2009, 07:08 PM   #2
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If you are tight on money maybe the VBAR is not the best choice if you plan to use cheaper packs and blades.

There is not much difference in blade prices really i think.
I would skip the VBAR for the time being as if you crash it could be broken and cost even more.

I know people who use the blue zippy packs in 10S config and get 70 cycles (thats the info i have), he keeps a log of MA used etc and charge date.
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Old 03-15-2009, 07:19 PM   #3
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One thing to bear in mind is that you are likely to crash less frequently with a larger helicopter. The size means you can fly higher and see better (or some combination thereof).

I bought my Logo 600 with the intention of keeping it precious and only doing what I was thoroughly competent doing with my 450. In the event, I did my first backwards circuits and inverted flying with the Logo because it was so much easier. I did crash it eventually hovering too low. But my original plan was valid - I have never yet crashed doing something I could do competently on the 450.

Others will differ, but I find woodies at 10-15 are not my major crash costs.
They fly well enough for me, at my level of sports-flying and with my relatively low headspeeds I don't worry too much about them coming apart. Perhaps I should, but they haven't yet done so...
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Old 03-15-2009, 09:53 PM   #4
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Helicraze,

The Vbars have come down a bit in price which first got me interested in Logos. I guess my assumption is that the Vbar unit is going to survive a crash. I liken it to a receiver or gyro, which if mounted in the right spot is generally fairly safe. It would be unfortunate I agree to loose the Vbar in a crash.

Wlfk,

Are you flying the flybar version to be using woodies? Yes I hope to crash less frequently than I do with the 450. I would estimate 20+ crashes since I started 2.5 years ago, but it would probably only take 5 or 6 crashes on a Logo to add up to the same.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:02 AM   #5
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I may not be qualified to say this but, I'm going to anyway. V-bar will make you a better pilot. Atleast it appears that way to me. I am already feeling more competent and comfortable with my v-barred heli than I did with my flybarred heli and it's only been a couple weeks. I don't even have the damn thing dialed in yet! It seems to be more nimble and more stable at the same time. That totally sounds like a contradiction in terms but I swear it's true.

Do the V-bar. You won't be sorry.
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Old 03-16-2009, 04:49 AM   #6
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That's entirely right terrabit

The gyro's give extra stability while VBar also offers enhanced mobility
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Old 03-16-2009, 04:49 AM   #7
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Yes I am flying the flybarred version - sorry, I should have said. I don't know anything about how the V-bar performs with woodies.
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Old 03-16-2009, 05:15 AM   #8
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Hi!
If the budget is really tight and crashing would cause some down-time because of the budget I would not buy a logo. There are other good options out there with cheap replacement parts.
Of course a bigger heli has better stability but you need much more power and this costs money and battery lifetime. I'm using 6s Zippy-H 5000, they have some good performance, but mine began to drift right after the winter break with only 30 to 40 cycles. I never took out more than 3000 to 3500mAh which was around 4:30 to 5 min flight time with 553mm Maniacs and a OBL 43/11. And I didn't push them too hard, power setup was for around 2000W peak performance which is the 20C rating which they should really be able to handle. I upgraded my Logo 500 now to a 600-class machine which didn't cost much and was worth the money. But I don't think that I'll have the Zippys for lots more cycles. As soon as they die I'll upgrade to 10s which doesn't cost that much more...

About flybarless... you should not use it if you're not using the right environment. If you have slow servos or some bad blades (and wood blades would be the worst option, some more expensive CF blades don't perform that good too) you will not get good results. Than you better use a flybar head...
A VStabi Logo is really great but it needs some good electronics and the right blades to show it's performance. And this isn't a cheap thing. Of course if you use other good electronic parts like a Gy611 for the tail, the difference to a vbar is not much...
-klaus
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:30 AM   #9
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Terrabit,

That sounds like the best of both worlds and exactly what I'm after. I would definitely like to get the Vbar version as it offers the most adjustability, and the Logo are made especially for it.

Worldofmaya,

I've heard nothing but glowing reports about Zippy so thanks for your input. Mine are approaching 20 cycles now and I'm happy with their performance. I will be interested to see how they hold up, both with use and with storage, as my job means I cannot fly for several months sometimes.
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Old 03-17-2009, 05:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofmaya View Post
Of course if you use other good electronic parts like a Gy611 for the tail, the difference to a vbar is not much...
I would tend to disagree with that actually
The CSM720 and the Spartan and the VStabi all out perform the GY611
in windy conditions and during piro flips - and by quite a margin in my view

The CSM720 is not plug and play however - it can be a time consuming pain
The Spartan is plug and play and is superb
Then you have the ultimate - VStabi
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:23 AM   #11
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Nothing holds the tail like Vstabi. I have flown with the best Gyros available and they don't hold a candle to the Vstabi tail. I don't know how Mikado did it. I think they should enter the Gyro market too.
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Old 03-17-2009, 01:10 PM   #12
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They just have more information than anyone else... a tail gyro just has its sensor, the only thing VStabi doesn't get is the throttle signal.
-klaus
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Old 03-17-2009, 01:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofmaya View Post
They just have more information than anyone else... a tail gyro just has its sensor, the only thing VStabi doesn't get is the throttle signal.
-klaus

Perhaps gyro makers should take notice? Perhaps gyros should be looking at more info from the Rx besides gain and rudder input? Interesting idea.
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Old 03-17-2009, 03:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Perhaps gyro makers should take notice? Perhaps gyros should be looking at more info from the Rx besides gain and rudder input? Interesting idea.
For sure... but who wants that? If I can plug every servo and my Esc into a VStabi and just connect a satellite and all of this in one piece of electronics... that's a wonderful solution with everything in place.
The only thing I miss now is a two-way communication with my Esc and a back-channel via 2.4Ghz to transfer data like head-speed, voltage and a real per-cell low-voltage alarm directly from your transmitter. But I think this is something which will be possible in the near future...
-klaus
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Old 03-17-2009, 06:00 PM   #15
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There seems to be a two distictly different schools of thought with regard to heli electronics and technology. On one extreme end you have the purists who bemoan the invention of the heading-hold gyro. On the other, those who would like to program there helis to make espresso while they nap. (Actually, I would like that.) Thing is, it's all good! As Dr Ruth, the beloved white haired sex therapist says, "If it feels good, do it".

What, you never heard of Dr Ruth? http://drruth.com/ (Watch the video. I dare ya.)
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Old 03-17-2009, 06:24 PM   #16
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hahaha... good post terrabit
as a side note, I learned flying without tail gyro... but that's nothing compared to pilot here who flys 3D and he even doesn't use paddles
(and no other electronics besides servos and receiver).
-klaus
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Old 03-17-2009, 06:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofmaya View Post
hahaha... good post terrabit
as a side note, I learned flying without tail gyro... but that's nothing compared to pilot here who flys 3D and he even doesn't use paddles
(and no other electronics besides servos and receiver).
-klaus

Wow that's unbelievable. I couldn't keep it in the air without a gyro, never mind 3d.
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