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Old 11-12-2009, 09:33 PM   #1
jbeech
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Default 4 horsepower Pantera

We flew the P50E-r1 today making 2860 watts, or just about 4 horsepower (746w/hp). 5 minute flight on a pair of 3700mAh Evo25 cells used abvout 80% of them (10S=38 volts). Lots of fun seeing 98A on full blast collective climb outs, which were simply wicked. The packs are old and thus we didn't see the max power we could have with 30C or 35C packs. Imagine how this puppy would respond on fresh batteries because during hard climb-outs thesepacks were dropping to 28.5V.

Meanwhile, we've sussed out the r2 for the electric conversion, which is more simple and is what we'll offer. But testing is still going apace for now using the r1 because there's n performance difference and this is just a prototype. By the way, we also flew with a pair of 4S 5000mAh packs (8S since they're in series) and we're seeing 80A, at 1750 RPM and 8 minutes easy (and thinking we can get 10 minutes). This was a really nice and mellow sport set up perfect for learning (both examples using a common 630kV motor). On 8S, or about 30 volts nominal. The same motor on 10S was governed to 2000 RPM (due to more voltage), and tomorrow we're shooting for more because the governor should have some headroom left. Meanwhile, the gears showed no distress and next we're going to 12S. We should change to a 500 kV motor because now we'll be at about 45 volts, give or take, nominal (if we stuck with the 630kV motor this would see the head at 2500RPM and with the small head we're not going to take a chance . . . probably). This really calls for the XL head, which is the real purpose of this testing. As it turns out, we've been having so much fun things are delayed a little bit. Nevertheless, this should be a yee haw experience!

More as it develops, but if you're interested, this is some of what's going on at the swamp this week.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:42 PM   #2
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Very Nice! I have your model on my radar. I'd like to get the BOGO and throw an OS-70 in one and Novarossi 91 or YS-91 in the other.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:45 PM   #3
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4 whole horsepower!?!?!?!

Wow. that's at least 20% better than a typical .90. That thing will be a weapon on 12S!

-Ray
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:50 PM   #4
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I would be very interested in this as I work from the house a lot, and I can throw up an electric easily, but I cant' really do that too much with a nitro right now.


It would get me into a bigger bird, instead of the 4-5 packs a day of my 450.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:08 PM   #5
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No Ray, you misunderstand, that's 4 horsepower on 10S. The only reason we didn't see the full 3000W out of the motor is the internal resistance of the old packs is too high (they're 25C packs). Nowadays it's common as dirt to find 35C and 40C and greater if you're willing to pony up for them. me? I'll be perfectly happy on 30 or 35C packs, heck I'm happy with the 25C packs, which are dirt cheap by comparison.nowadays. Anyway, on 12S we're going north of 4 horsepower, e.g. 5+ (maybe 5.3 hp). Best of all, the 6S packs we've got 30C packs, which are newer to boot so if we see 100A on 40V we have 4000 watts, which divided by 746 watts/horsepower = 5.3 wild ass mustangs!

Anyway, with respect to big electrics, e.g. bigger than a 450, it's only money. Real world, figure one $280 charger per set of packs (at present, a Hyperion with balancer built in). You'll want 3 or 4 pack sets (e.g. two 6S in series to make the 12S pack), and of course, some way of powering the chargers. I'm using an 80A power supply at 13.6 volts, or close to 1100 watts and since it's 75 to 80% efficient, multiply by 1.25 equals 1360 watts going into the supply. At the field, you'll need a 1000W Honda generator because in practice you're not charging a butt load of totally discharged batteries at the same time (or keep your car idling).
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:22 PM   #6
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That sounds like a lot of work... the amount of gear and investment required sounds kind of like flying a turbine!

I have known since I started flying my 450 that electric is the way to go, but it can be prohibitively expensive for normal guys like me to campaign a 600-size or larger electric. I think I remember doing the math at one point and determining that I was going to spend the same amount of money on a complete nitro 50 setup as I would on batteries and chargers alone for a similarly-sized electric model. It's too bad, because I feel that electric is the way to go. It's got better power, better power management, the heli doesn't change weight throughout the flight, and they sure seem to vibrate a whole lot less. And they're clean.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification, John, and I'm looking forward to hearing more!

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Old 11-12-2009, 11:26 PM   #7
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Ho Ho Ho... I know that fun!

I have a 600 electric with a 980KV motor and a 100amp ESC.
With 6S 5000Mh pack (30C) when you do the math, you get about 3HP.

I know that feeling when you bang on the throttle

A Pantera with 4HP electric must be a lot of fun!

Can you post some pics/video, please?
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Old 11-13-2009, 12:28 AM   #8
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Pics? Sorry, not right now . . . too busy having fun. Look folks, it's about 1:30 1 AM and we're only now about to shut down for the day! Anyway, tomorrow (today, Friday), e.g. later today is the big day. Why? Because we flight test the XL conversion for the first time. Think 8 lb 14 oz Pantera, with a 91, and 710 mm blades.

Or opt for 12S, and she's still dirt cheap, tank tough, and you can grow in whatever direction strikes your fancy, e.g. a cheap 50-class beater for 200 bucks, which is pretty darn capable right out of the box. Or stuff a 91 in her and have fun racing bottle rockets (and your pals paying out the nose for the newest Hyper).

Or maybe extend the head/tail boom, or convert it to electric, whatever and best of all, you don't break the bank when (not if) you smack terra firma because it's still just a Pantera to repair. What's not to like?

Anyway, during difficult economic times, it's time to fly smarter, e.g. not waste money As for us, we'll fly and have fun and not worry overly much because we're getting everything dialed in, sales are picking up steam as the word spreads, and this is a good sign for those Audacious enough to make their own way, e.g. not always follow the crowd.
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:12 AM   #9
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John,

Still running the HV85? I hit over 100A several times on the initial testing last year, it always held up well and stayed cool. The HV110 might be a nice combo when you finish the package, but the price is a big jump up. If you only see a few spikes over the 80, I'd say the HV85 would be plenty.

fyi, I posted my eagle tree logs on wattflyer at the time if anyone wants to search
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:40 AM   #10
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We believe the 85HV would handle the 8S configuration as we were flying it yesterday. The reson we're using a 110A unit is connector compatibility (with the motors we're testing_. Now on 10S we're not so sanguine of the 85HV and on 12S we're just running scared, which is why since it was more convenient to just change from the get go, we're already to proceed with testing without having to swap out speed controls. E.g. nothing wrong with what the R0 version had (yours) just more conveninet for testing.

We're performing limits testing today using 12A. The 8S 5000mAh is a nice pack for sport flying with a motor selection optimized for 38 volts, e.g. buy a 630kV, which is perfect for the voltage we're running and the gear ratio available. Moreover, duration is nice and everything is cool on landing. No question there are many ways to skin an electric cat, but we feel higher than the 630kV motor is not best in this application.

For 12S, we're changing motors to 500kV (45 volts remeber, so multiply kv by volts and divide by gear ratio to solve for main rotor rpm).
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:43 AM   #11
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:32 PM   #12
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OK If I get my Ducted Fan working right, I will need to come up with some mods. to get the power up some more. I WANT TO BE TOP DOG.

What size blades and how much pitch ya pullin?
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:43 AM   #13
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To everybody asking when and how much . . .

I'm sorry but it's too soon to tell. Frankly, we're engaged in product testing. For example, today we're engaged in additional limit testing, e.g. does it blow up? We've successfuly performed limit testing with 8S and 10S packs. Yoday, we're using a 12S pack with the same 630kV motor today, e.g. 630kV x 45.6V = a big number.

This is multiplied by some percentage for efficiency, then divided by the gear ratio and the result is another big number, which we suspect 'might' explode the Pantera. This is why it's called limit testing!

Anyway, when we know you'll know, which I recognize is unsatisfying but we're in untrodden territory and nobody knows the answer yet. It's why I haven't said too too much publicly. More as it develops, I promise.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:09 AM   #14
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John, you have the coolest job in the world!

I my line of work, I "scientifically" destroy car parts, and I get a grin out of it every day. It also satisfies the engineer in me to test things and try new designs out. To be able to combine that with model helicopters must be a blast! I know from experience that limit / ultimate performance testing can be dangerous and exciting all at the same time, and I wish I could see what you guys are up to!

This is the type of testing that reveals new limits and fosters innovation. The fact that you're so vocal about what you're doing is one of the things that makes me so excited to fly an Audacity model! Keep it up!

"I have not failed 1000 times.... I have simply found 1000 ways that don't work."
-Thomas Edison

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Old 11-14-2009, 12:22 PM   #15
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Update . . . 2760 RPM without finding the limit, e.g. destruction. We saw a little over 3500 watts, maybe 4.7 horsepower, which exceeds the capability of the motor (for long term use, e.g. flying around). Moreover, we saw 77A, no strange results, e.g. gears survived (as expected), the blade bolts did not bend, there are no obvious signs of deformation. What this means to some of you (Mr. HillBilly, and his OS 91 ducted fan engine comes to mind), is have fun!

Meanwhile, to those who have asked how fast can they run their Pantera head, I'm sorry but we've once again exceeded the capability of being able to measure it to destruction. Simply put, while we've previously seen 2500 RPM with the YS91SR (accidentally), the only thing we learned then was where it didn't fail. Frankly, this isn't very satisfying. Worse, today (using our usual 139 g blades), we still don't know (we know what it is in a load cell but this is real world, e.g. blades turning). Hence, we have negative results again, i.e. the limit test failed again. Why? Simply because we can't put enough horsepower into the Pantera head to break it with what we have on hand.

In other words, any kind of 50-class engine on the planet, 50SX Hyper, the 55 Hyper, the various odd engines like Novarossi .57 and KNE .60 are quite likely safe simply because they're port limited, e.g. won't run past perhaps 20,000 RPM, which divided by the gear ratio of 8.7:1 works out to about 2300 RPM. Of course, OS Max only claims 2.1 horsepower from their new .55 Hyper, and under max pitch so it's impossible to get this this kind of RPM, so with any pitch on the blades to speak of a real world 50 probably won't break a bone stock Pantera 50 head.

Is this our blessing to go try? No, absolutely not! Nothing has changed and we still do not reliably know where this bone stock Pantera 50 head fails. Moreover, we do not desire to extrapolate to every one of them that exist, and consequently, we continue to maintain the "never exceed" speed rating of a Pantera 50 head is 1850 RPM, which means if you exceed this it's on you instead of us.
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:32 PM   #16
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2750 two words for you JB. OH BABY Dude you are nuts I love it.

DId yours get a whistle when it hit 2500 or better? I lost a mag. and I am guessing my DF was at about 2500 or better and it had a whistle sound to it.

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we continue to maintain the "never exceed" speed rating of a Pantera 50 head at 1850 RPM, which means exceeding this is on you, not us.
That is the best way to put it right there, if it blows up in your face it is your own problem.
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Old 11-14-2009, 01:48 PM   #17
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Pantera 2 is going to be a nitro 55, Pantera 2 could still become an electric.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:52 PM   #18
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Default 2750!!!???

And you're worried about spinning 710's on the stock heads??!! I haven't done the math but I'm thinkin that the loading on the blade grips (and bolts) at that speed would have to be pretty close to the same as spinning 710's in the 1900 to 1950 range. I think this means that your stock setup is a lot more solid than you give credit to, John.

Thomas
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:40 PM   #19
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Looks like JB is coming over to the wild side with us Tom.

2700+ on a Pantera, that has got to sound MEAN in a hover.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:11 AM   #20
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Im mounting 810mm blades RIGHT NOW!!.... 3D baby!

1850 on a stock head..PSSTTTppp!..... 810mm at 2500 rpm is more like it!!
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