Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > 500 Class Electric Helicopters


500 Class Electric Helicopters 500 Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-01-2010, 05:32 AM   #1
farn
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Switzerland
Default TRex 500 headspeed

Hi

I am fairly new in this forum and I only have six month of experience in flying RC Helicopters. I have a TRex 500 stock setup expect the ESC which is an Phoenix ICE 75.
The pinion gear is as well stock 13 teeth.
I use the log function of the Phoenix ICE ESC to find out my headspeed. When I set the correct gear ratio in the application (162/13), 1600kv (stock motor), 6 poles the ICE logs about rotor rpm’s between 3200 and 2900. I have to say that I fly in non governor mode with a fixed throttle curve.
100 85 100 and a linear pitch curve 0 25 50 75 100 (-12 +12). Do I have to reduce the headspeed or not? Simply reduce the curve? The manual says, that this headspeed is to high.
Any hints?
farn is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 06:48 AM   #2
Deet
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,532
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Australia
Default

Leave it

Most of us run 100% flat curves with the 1600Kv motor 13T pinion and 6s batteries.

I would guess the logger in the ESC is wrong BTW
__________________
Dave
Goblin 500, Vbar, BLS153, BLS251, Kontronic Jive & Piro
MutliWiiCopter Scarab Stealth Armour,Scarab Stealth Reconn V3, Scarab TriiKopta, Scarab Octa, Scarab Vampire
Deet is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 06:50 AM   #3
lncellusion
Registered Users
 
Posts: 762
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia, NSW Sydney
Default

I am not thte best twitth headspeed, butt with the pitch curve, if your hover pc is linear, you should change it, may just be personal preference, but it could also do thte trick.
__________________
Trex 500: Spartan Quark+ DS520, 2650mah 30c 6s, DS510's, 500M motor, stock 60a esc, Curtsi Youngblood RAdix 430mm main blades, KBDD tail blades.

Messerschmitt 109: all stock, 1800mah 3s 30c lipo.
lncellusion is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 10:46 AM   #4
stevehof
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,390
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oceanside, CA
Default

If you were just running the stock ESC I'd say leave it alone. However, the ICE has a VERY nice governor setup. You might try Gov Set RPM mode. You can then enter any reasonable head speed you want and the gov will keep it constant. However, Unless you have super duper batteries and a very fresh motor it is unlikely that you will be able to maintain anything more than about 2600-2700 rpm for an entire flight either with gov mode or a flat throttle curve.

The ICE gov software looks for 20% headroom below the calculated max head speed. With a 1600 KV motor and 13T pinion it will warn you that anything above 2400 RPM is too high...Don't worry about that...You can experiment and see what your motor/batteries can hold for a flight by checking your log after a flight and adjusting accordingly...If 'motor power out' reaches and stays at 100% before the end of the flight, you have reached the practical limit of your hardware....
__________________
Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV, Hacker Turnado 530 Edition, Rail 716, CC120, WR Sup BEC, Scorp BUG | Trex 450L, Vbar Pro, MKS 8910A+ on tail, Talon 35 | Futaba 18mz
stevehof is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 11:08 AM   #5
heli bob
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: puerto rico
Default

so i run mine in a 14t 6cell 3000mah stock motor and esc 60amp all aling what will be my rpm head speed.t curve 100% linear and pitch linear.
heli bob is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 11:43 AM   #6
stevehof
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,390
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oceanside, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heli bob View Post
so i run mine in a 14t 6cell 3000mah stock motor and esc 60amp all aling what will be my rpm head speed.t curve 100% linear and pitch linear.
This will help you out...

http://heli.dacsa.net/calculatorv2/Default.aspx
__________________
Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV, Hacker Turnado 530 Edition, Rail 716, CC120, WR Sup BEC, Scorp BUG | Trex 450L, Vbar Pro, MKS 8910A+ on tail, Talon 35 | Futaba 18mz
stevehof is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 04:31 PM   #7
jauguston
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bellingham,WA,USA
Default

I would bet your 60a ESC is not real happy near the end of your flight time if you do much besides just fly around with that setup.

Jim
jauguston is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 10:07 PM   #8
Tisondm
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,277
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Central Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by farn View Post
Hi

I am fairly new in this forum and I only have six month of experience in flying RC Helicopters. I have a TRex 500 stock setup expect the ESC which is an Phoenix ICE 75.
The pinion gear is as well stock 13 teeth.
I use the log function of the Phoenix ICE ESC to find out my headspeed. When I set the correct gear ratio in the application (162/13), 1600kv (stock motor), 6 poles the ICE logs about rotor rpm’s between 3200 and 2900. I have to say that I fly in non governor mode with a fixed throttle curve.
100 85 100 and a linear pitch curve 0 25 50 75 100 (-12 +12). Do I have to reduce the headspeed or not? Simply reduce the curve? The manual says, that this headspeed is to high.
Any hints?
I used an actual thachometer(not that expensive by the way) and tached my HS at 2500 at at 60% thottle so your readings could be acurrate. If your happy with the way it flies, go with it. If not, just lower your throttle curve a little.
__________________
JR X9503
TREX 500 ESP FBL, Skookum SK720, Scorpion 3026-1600, 14T
CHP TREX 600 ESP FBL, SK720, 8S, Scorpion 4025-740, 12T, WR Bec
TREX 700E FBL, SK720, 12S, Scorpion Comm 130A ESC & 4035-500 , 12T, WR Bec
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Tisondm is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2010, 12:59 PM   #9
farn
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Switzerland
Default

I thank you all very much for your answers and for the time. I am very happy how it flies but I have a litte bit of fear for the rotorhead because the manual says that the headspeed shouldn't go over 2650. I think, that I'll try the gov mode but I read some threads where people running 14t in gov mode, so I don't know.
farn is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2010, 01:09 PM   #10
stevehof
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,390
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oceanside, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by farn View Post
I thank you all very much for your answers and for the time. I am very happy how it flies but I have a litte bit of fear for the rotorhead because the manual says that the headspeed shouldn't go over 2650. I think, that I'll try the gov mode but I read some threads where people running 14t in gov mode, so I don't know.
Many people fly 2700-2800 without any problems. Be sure to use high quality CF blades and you'll be fine. Your ICE's gov set RPM mode would also be fine with either a 13T or 14T pinion and 2500-2600 RPM. If you ask for much more head speed you'll be pushing your stock motor and batteries pretty hard but it should be OK....You will need good batteries (reasonably fresh 30-40C) to maintain 2600 rpm during hard collective maneuvers. The T500 will fly just fine down around 2400 too. Anything much below 2200 and you'll start seeing some tail bobbing...
__________________
Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV, Hacker Turnado 530 Edition, Rail 716, CC120, WR Sup BEC, Scorp BUG | Trex 450L, Vbar Pro, MKS 8910A+ on tail, Talon 35 | Futaba 18mz
stevehof is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2010, 04:46 AM   #11
farn
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Switzerland
Default

So i configured now the governor mode set rpm in my ice75 esc, with a 14t pinion and a headspeed of 2600. With the 13t pinion the motor output was always on 100% but with the 14t it works. The only big problem I have is the esc noise. I don't know if it's gear chatter or what but it's a very loud annoying sound. I tried with different governor gain settings 10 to 25 but there is no change, there is always this sound. In normal mode 2200 rpm I don't hear this sound but when I change my DX6i to stunt (idle1) with 2600 rpm the sound comes up. I recheckd the gear mesh but there is no difference. When I remove the blades it is not bad but with the blades it's really loud. Please help.
farn is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 03:45 PM   #12
N0FEAR
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,476
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Chicago, NW Suburbs
Default

I'm running the same setup as you.
Scorp 1600 with 14t pinion and ICE 75 set to govern HS at 2600.

Based upon the logs I pulled yesterday it would appear as though we would need to go up
to a 15t to get the motor power output to average at around 85%.

With the 14t the motor is still hitting 100% too often and this flight was no where near hardcore 3D.

Was just doing some tic-tocs into inverted punch outs into tail slides. Nothing crazy at all.

A second opinion on my assumptions here would be appreciated.

Oh and sorry to hijack the OP's thread.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	04112010_1600_14t_35C.jpg
Views:	177
Size:	41.4 KB
ID:	150846  
__________________
Rave 450 FBL
Rave ENV FBL


CurtisYoungblood.com - Field Rep.
N0FEAR is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2010, 01:31 AM   #13
farn
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Switzerland
Default

In the meantime I changed my setup because the noise I mentioned was the motorbearing of my 500M. So I changed the motor to a neu 1706H 1.5y. This motor is rated at 1255kv so for know I have a 19t pinion (I tried as well with 17 and 20) with 2700 headspeed. Motor and Lipo comes down warm (lipo 35C and motor 50 -60C) but the amp draw is much higher than with the 500M, the max peak is between 85 and 98. I will later post a graph.
farn is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2010, 04:01 AM   #14
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,274
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0FEAR View Post
With the 14t the motor is still hitting 100% too often and this flight was no where near hardcore 3D.
Was just doing some tic-tocs into inverted punch outs into tail slides. Nothing crazy at all.
That graph looks fine to me, the motor power output is spiking up around 100% but not maxing out at all, and pack voltage looks fine throughout flight. Also IMHO tic tocs/punch outs are pretty punishing on lipo/setup, as its maxing out pitch/cyclic which loads up the head most.

My understanding is that as long as motor power output isn't flatlining at 100% (ie maxed out and still trying), then setup is OK - I find that its more the lipo that affects this, as long as you have sensible governed headspeed (ie within CC reccomendation), this is more an indication of your lipo health/C rating.

I run 14t/ICE75/500M on cheap Turnigy 2650mah 20C lipos and my motor power output is spiking to 100% towards end of flight time, but its still OK.

I also have a cheap ebay lipo (marked winforce 2800mah 35C, but clearly nowhere near that - closer to 10C/18C burst I'd estimate) which is maxed out on motor power output a fair bit of the flight - see graph attached - its the 'flat tops' on the motor power output which show this pack is not up to scratch, also the voltage drops considerably under load - which confirms the lipo is not managing anywhere like 35C (max on this graph is not even 18C burst, and it can't hold that). I also had a lipo alarm fitted on this flight which was beeping to indicate cells below 3.3v at max pitch pretty much throughout this flight.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	100411LogWinforce2800mah30C.jpg
Views:	149
Size:	83.8 KB
ID:	158956  
jamesb72 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 12:23 AM   #15
rcflyerheli
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,638
 

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Granbury
Default

On this topic, I am running a stock 500 3g with new 6s/35c 3300 mah hyperions. I was told that I needed to go to 14 or 15 tooth pinion to increase the headspeed. I have not personally flown this heli yet (newbe) but have seen it flown. Right now I am pretty sure the TC is 85-90% straight line (idle 1/2) and 0-65-65-65-100 on norm. Only hover has been done. Didn't see any tail wag in norm and idle 1 but when switched to idle 2 got tail wag.

I was told that the 3g needs lots of head speed. I am not sure what max speed should be for this thing. Will a 14 or 15 tooth pinion be too much and give too high headspeed (will not be doing or attempting anything radical for a good long while).

Thanks

Last edited by rcflyerheli; 05-27-2010 at 12:24 AM.. Reason: added cell size
rcflyerheli is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 04:35 AM   #16
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,274
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

I'd say until your flying it at 100% flat TC and feeling headspeed isn't fast enough, 13t pinion should be fine, so not sure why you would want to go up to 14/15t pinion - especially as you will mostly be flying in normal to start with, and you are only at 65 throttle - this might be a tad low, but you should fly it and see how it looks, if its nodding/bobbling then tweak this up a bit - but if it flies OK for you, then stick with what works.

A lot of people are obsessed with headspeed on 500s, but I'm flying normal 2200, idleup 2500 (500ESP with 3G/500M/14t/ICE75) and its flying fine for me (14t pinion is because ICE ESC has to have 20% headroom, I also fly another 500ESP 3G with Align ESC/13t pinion on the throttle curves in manual, and that flies fine as well - headspeed in hover tacho'd around 2400), sport flying, big aerobatics, and invert/flips/rolls - youtube link to my maiden flight (with even lower headspeed, I think this was 2100/2400) shows this heli flies fine at that headspeed.
jamesb72 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 01:24 PM   #17
flynlyons2
Registered Users
 
Posts: 135
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: None
Default

I have the T-Rex 500 ESP with stock Align ESC/equipment. Using normal/typical Throttle Curve and Pitch Curve and finally purchased a tach to see what my head speed really was. Right now I'm getting about 6 minutes from a 6S 30C 3000mAh Turnigy battery setup (although I have extra weight on it due to the Align Hughes 500E body... Without the body I was getting 7 minutes). The head speed shows 2490 just as the heli lifts off. The heli flies great (although it is my first) and I am only doing basic maneuvers right now. Batteries come down only warm and motor shows about 50-60C usually.

My question is this: Should I run the head speed lower on my T-Rex 500? I ask this because I just built a T-Rex 600 ESP with the stock 600M motor and put a CC ICE 100 on it in governor mode (using 6S 30C 5000mAh batteries). Runs awesome on governor mode 1850-1950 rpm. After 6 minutes batteries are only lukewarm (if that) and I am only putting back in 50-55% into the batteries. So should I run my T-Rex at maybe 2200 rpm? Little longer battery time? Or do you run smaller helicopters at higher head speeds? Not sure as I'm new to all of this and it's a big learning curve.

David
flynlyons2 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 02:56 PM   #18
redgiki
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Riverton, UT USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flynlyons2 View Post
My question is this: Should I run the head speed lower on my T-Rex 500?
Probably not. Most of us find a sweet spot around 2500RPM on the 500. Head speeds over 3000RPM, while possible, sometimes result in exploding tails unless you reduce the tail gear ratio. Typically much lower than 2200-2400RPM, you'll find that the helicopter wobbles in the air a lot.

If you truly want to run much lower head speed -- like for a scale ship, or duration flying -- you'll typically want to replace your dampers with something much softer. They will help prevent the wobbles. Also, running longer and/or heavier blades will reduce wobble due to low head speed.

Quote:
Or do you run smaller helicopters at higher head speeds?
Yeah, you do. My little 250-sized heli is cranking out over 4000 RPM. My 450, around 3000. My 500, around 2400-2600. My .50 (600-sized), 1850-2100.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
redgiki is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 03:40 PM   #19
shizack
Registered Users
 
Posts: 279
 

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Aiken, SC
Default

Another bigger heli = lower headspeed example:
Ever see the "real" choppers flying overhead? You can pretty much see the individual blades.

I tached my mSR at around 3000rpm full throttle. Doesn't hurt much. My 500 tachs at 2850 at 86.5% / 0. Does hurt much. And that was just a graze from a flybar paddle.
shizack is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2010, 08:27 PM   #20
flynlyons2
Registered Users
 
Posts: 135
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: None
Default

OK, I see where this is going... Bigger = lower head speed (for normal maneuvers). Makes sense, just thought I'd ask as I wasn't sure if 2500 rpm was "too fast", but from your guys experience along with my (limited) flying time with the T-Rex 500 I find that 2500 rpm is about ideal myself. Just didn't want to overstress anything needlessly. Guess I could put my T-Rex 600 up to about 1950 - 2050 and it would be fine too.
flynlyons2 is offline        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > 500 Class Electric Helicopters


500 Class Electric Helicopters 500 Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2011 - William James - Helifreak.com