Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > 600 Class Electric Helicopters > 600 PRO Class Electric Helicopters


600 PRO Class Electric Helicopters 600 PRO Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-20-2011, 12:57 AM   #1
OnTheSnap
Registered Users
 
Posts: 11,608
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Clara, Ca
Default 600e Pro Tail Blow Outs

This thread needs to be a sticky in the 600e Pro sub forum.

The new Pro has a reduced tail gear ratio compared to other 600 class machines. The typical ratio is 4.5. The 600 Pro uses 3.85. This is a 15% reduction in tail thrust.

Standard "hard 3D" headspeeds of 2200-2250 does not produce enough tail holding power for basic 3D maneuvers and you can see tail blowouts during basic maneuvers like tic tocs.

The solution is to run 105mm tail blades (disc area increase of 14%) to compensate for the change.

The stock low profile landing gear will not provide sufficient clearance. The recommendation is to use the 700e/550e stock gear in the rear to angle the tail up (boom rake).

As far as reliability is concerned there is no data yet. But the Align test pilots (Alan S) apparently runs his machine at 2500+ headspeed, which is 15% higher then the accepted hard 3D headspeeds for a 600 class machine. No wonder he thinks the tail holds with 95mm blades!

Take extreme caution if you choose to fly hard with 95mm blades at "sane" headspeeds. I put my machine in hard due to a very bad tail blow out at 2200 RPM with 95mm tail blades while I was "smacking" close to the ground.

105mm provides great tail authority and the expected tail performance for this class machine.
__________________
HeliDirect
Zeal Blades

MSH USA
OnTheSnap is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 01:42 AM   #2
ccjohn98
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vancouver BC. Canada
Default

I have been fly and confirmed with Align that normal 3D flight with the original factory packing (including Castle ICE 80 ESC and 95 tail blade), running the headspeed at 2200 with both collective pitch and cyclic pitch at 13 degree would give it a great without any problem on its tail and fly just like having the same power as nitro machine .

Some of my friends like to do powerful 3D flight, they run the headspeed at 2350 to 2400 and even 2500 and tail can still keep smoothly and no vibration. They fly really crazy!

ccjohn98 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 02:12 AM   #3
OnTheSnap
Registered Users
 
Posts: 11,608
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Clara, Ca
Default

Sorry, this just can't be true. Please shoot a video of you doing fast collective reversals at 2200 rpm. Your tail will break free 90 degrees.

Align needs to explain the logic behind reducing the tail gear ratio on the 600 pro and now the 550 3gx. If you have access to them please find out what's going on, and get them on this forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjohn98 View Post
I have been fly and confirmed with Align that normal 3D flight with the original factory packing (including Castle ICE 80 ESC and 95 tail blade), running the headspeed at 2200 with both collective pitch and cyclic pitch at 13 degree would give it a great without any problem on its tail and fly just like having the same power as nitro machine .

Some of my friends like to do powerful 3D flight, they run the headspeed at 2350 to 2400 and even 2500 and tail can still keep smoothly and no vibration. They fly really crazy!

__________________
HeliDirect
Zeal Blades

MSH USA
OnTheSnap is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 02:25 AM   #4
ccjohn98
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vancouver BC. Canada
Default

I am wondering why you are keep saying the original kit have problem. Do you have anything to prove that Trex 600E PRO has the problem like you said?

Anywyas, when I have time, I will do a video to show you or simply pass this to Align and see if they can create a video on this.
ccjohn98 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 04:38 AM   #5
ollie2893
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: England
Default

Interesting, Snap. Did you look at where the different translation ratio originates? If at the front, would the autorotation gearset of the 600e perhaps fit? If at the rear, can you use the 600e tail case?

Last edited by ollie2893; 06-20-2011 at 08:49 AM..
ollie2893 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 05:23 AM   #6
TdB
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Default

A tail ratio of 3.85!!! Did they completely lost their mind?!?!?!
Align helicopter always had low numbers, but this is just ridiculous!

+1 for the topic starter!!

This should be a sticky!!

Tim
__________________
450 electronics (looking for a frame) - Mini V-Bar - S3156 - DS520 - K-Force 40A - Tarot 3500 Kv
700E DFC (building) - V-Bar - 8917HV - 8900G - HeliJive - Pyro 700-45
XG14
TdB is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 05:38 AM   #7
raptor50luvver
Registered Users
 
Posts: 534
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Default

I agree I am having nothing but trouble with the tail on my 600e pro with blowing out all my other align helix are brilliant,would also like an explanation from Align on this and ideally a revised or optional gearset to give a higher tail speed.

If they can't sort this I will simply sell the airframe and get one that runs properly at a sensible headspeed,there are Plenty of options out there.

I used go run a logo 600 on the same 3300 packs I am using on the 600 pro,the logo ran great at 2100 rpm and managed over 5 mins of 3d, my 600 pro manages 4 mins at the stupid headdpeed Align suggest.

So another Logo 600 may be on the cards for me soon if Align don't sort this.
raptor50luvver is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 06:12 AM   #8
toms
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: new york
Default

I have had my tail blow out also with my 600 pro with the 3gx and also the beastx.I am now running 105mm tail blades seems to be good so far only 5 flights with 105s.I am running 2300 headspeed and was at 2200.
toms is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 08:08 AM   #9
OnTheSnap
Registered Users
 
Posts: 11,608
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Clara, Ca
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjohn98 View Post
I am wondering why you are keep saying the original kit have problem. Do you have anything to prove that Trex 600E PRO has the problem like you said?

Anywyas, when I have time, I will do a video to show you or simply pass this to Align and see if they can create a video on this.
There is nothing to prove. The posted specs show a tail gear ratio of 3.85. The new auto gear is mod .8 and 131T. The new tail drive gear is 34T. 131/34 = 3.85

Every 600 I can find specs on is near 4.5 including the old ESP, Fusion50, Furion6, Logo, etc. So the Pro produces 15% less tail thrust at a given headspeed vs all other 600's. In practice 15% was a lot for my style of flying, and it caused me a very bad crash.

It seems Align thinks all Pro owners should run 100% flat which is 2500 RPM! This is insane just to get basic 3D tail performance.

105mm Tsil blades puts the Pro's tail thrust back in line with other models in this class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie2893 View Post
Interesting, Snap. Did you look at where the different translation ratio originates? If at the front, would the autorotation gearset of the 600e perhaps fit? If at the rear, can you use the 600e tail case?

PS: Incidentally, I note that the 131T 0.8M main spur from the Pro is supposedly compatible with my 600e main gear case? What pinions can I get for that spur? There are virtually no parts listed for the Pro with any of the stockists typically use. What pinions does Align ship with the Pro? I'd like 12T 0.8M 6mm...
The new one way bearing case is deeper now that they added a radial bearing. So the old auto gear does not fit. The change happened with the new auto gear and tail drive gear. They dropped the ratio to 3.85 from a healthy 4.5 on the ESP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms View Post
I have had my tail blow out also with my 600 pro with the 3gx and also the beastx.I am now running 105mm tail blades seems to be good so far only 5 flights with 105s.I am running 2300 headspeed and was at 2200.
No need to run 2300 with 105's. 2000-2250 all held really well for me.
__________________
HeliDirect
Zeal Blades

MSH USA
OnTheSnap is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 08:16 AM   #10
raptor50luvver
Registered Users
 
Posts: 534
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Default

So can someone from Align enlighten us with the idea of reducing the tail power on what's supposed to be a top end 3d performer?

Every other hv 600 class electric can produce stunning performance and decent duration at sensible headspeeds so who's smart idea was it to run a ridiculous headspeed and give short flight times compared to other brands of airframe.
raptor50luvver is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 04:23 PM   #11
whittb
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: RICHMOND TEXAS
Default re

12s power systems produce a large amount of torque compared to the older 6S systems. I wander if the reduction in tail gear is an attempt to save the torque tube gears from striping out during flight. There are other 12s helis that have been known to destroy torque tube umbrella gears in 3D flight. I think the cost of upgrading the materials used in the plastic gears might have been too much for the average heli owner to absorb.

Just my 2 cents. I fly very mild so the chances of me having to deal with this problem are very slim. I am however already ordering 105mm tail blades and a 700 tail stabilizer just to make sure. I already have the 600 ESP landing skids to raise the heli up a small amount.
whittb is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 05:15 PM   #12
ollie2893
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: England
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheSnap View Post
The new one way bearing case is deeper now that they added a radial bearing. So the old auto gear does not fit.
Actually, I just started a new thread on this subject (http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=316007) before I saw your entry so I can guess the responses. So turning my idea on its head in answer to your problem, on the Pro you could use the old auto rotation gear set together with old main gear case, the KDE adaptor and the new Pro spur to get back to the higher tail ratio.
ollie2893 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 05:36 PM   #13
teshreve
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,726
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Barton, Or
Default

And while the sticky button is handy, unstick most of other ancient threads up there, some of which are fully redundant.
teshreve is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 05:51 PM   #14
OnTheSnap
Registered Users
 
Posts: 11,608
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Clara, Ca
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie2893 View Post
Actually, I just started a new thread on this subject (http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=316007) before I saw your entry so I can guess the responses. So turning my idea on its head in answer to your problem, on the Pro you could use the old auto rotation gear set together with old main gear case, the KDE adaptor and the new Pro spur to get back to the higher tail ratio.
This seems possible, but I don't really want to run the old OWB (one way bearing) since it locks up on me often. The new OWB added in a top radial bearing that prevents lock ups, so my strong preference is to stick with it. Also the new auto gear is mod .8 which is seemingly more robust.

So it seems the best option is to just throw on 105mm tail blades and be happy.
__________________
HeliDirect
Zeal Blades

MSH USA
OnTheSnap is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 05:56 PM   #15
OnTheSnap
Registered Users
 
Posts: 11,608
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Clara, Ca
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whittb View Post
12s power systems produce a large amount of torque compared to the older 6S systems. I wander if the reduction in tail gear is an attempt to save the torque tube gears from striping out during flight. There are other 12s helis that have been known to destroy torque tube umbrella gears in 3D flight. I think the cost of upgrading the materials used in the plastic gears might have been too much for the average heli owner to absorb.

Just my 2 cents. I fly very mild so the chances of me having to deal with this problem are very slim. I am however already ordering 105mm tail blades and a 700 tail stabilizer just to make sure. I already have the 600 ESP landing skids to raise the heli up a small amount.
What seems to contradict this theory is that all the testing by Alan Szabo and friends was at 2500-2700 RPM on the head. So the actual tail thrust (force on the umbrella/tail gears) is exactly same as running 105mm at 2200 RPM.

Honestly my biggest concern now is will the umbrella gears last 100 flights without a failure? I owned a 600ESP 18 months ago that I converted to 12s. Just beating on it a little bit I would blow out the front torque tube umbrella gears. Many factors can impact this including how well the umbrella gears are meshed in the front boom block.

The 600 Pro umbrella gears are unchanged from teh 600ESP and 600n design. Size and material appear to be the same. So long term we all need to see that these are not a failure point for hard flying pilots.
__________________
HeliDirect
Zeal Blades

MSH USA
OnTheSnap is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 05:59 PM   #16
NRPY
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: California, USA
Default

Dang, I just ordered one of those new OWB cases for my 600 ESP thinking it would work. From what you've said, it won't work as it's intended for the new 600 Pro.

I wish GrandRC was a little more clear in their product descriptions, instead of just listing all 600 parts as 600e.
NRPY is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 01:54 AM   #17
ollie2893
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: England
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheSnap View Post
This seems possible, but I don't really want to run the old OWB (one way bearing) since it locks up on me often.
Yeah - I went through a spell of that and, without proper explanation (other than ample lube, perhaps), the problem went away and hasn't been back since.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheSnap View Post
the new auto gear is mod .8 which is seemingly more robust.
Possibly, though in dozens of crashes I am yet to lose a single tooth from the old auto rotation gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheSnap View Post
So it seems the best option is to just throw on 105mm tail blades and be happy.
Seems you found a satisfactory solution - good
ollie2893 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 02:44 AM   #18
Dflyer
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,713
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Brugge (Belgium)
Default

Crap,

the big shot pilots are testpilots for Align, and then they only test the kits on their level of flying, great job Align

It's a pitty that all the regular pilots are again used as beta-testers, same story again. Hopefully Align is going to sort this quick for you guys.

Grtz,
Dirk
__________________
The heli virus has infected me and i hope that there is NO CURE !! Compass Support Team
__________________________________________________ _____
Warp 360 / 6HVU / CY Stingray / Invertix 400 / SH Little Spyder
Dflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 03:09 AM   #19
felborn
Registered Users
 
Posts: 3,011
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sandnes, Norway
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dflyer View Post
Crap,

the big shot pilots are testpilots for Align, and then they only test the kits on their level of flying, great job Align

It's a pitty that all the regular pilots are again used as beta-testers, same story again. Hopefully Align is going to sort this quick for you guys.

Grtz,
Dirk
If this is sorted simply by using a pair for 105mm tailblades, I dont see the big problem. I'm following all the feedback closely, and alot of very helpfull information has been posted. I dont see the need for drama as the post above just yet.
felborn is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 03:26 AM   #20
ccjohn98
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vancouver BC. Canada
Default

here for the video that Align provided. They have also post this video on their facebook.

This model in the video is clearly showing from how it set up and fly with the 2200 headspeed and 95mm tailblades. Looks there is no problem on its tail and still able to do hard 3Ds.

Accounting to what Align told, people who have the problem on the tail should check if the tail is at the neutral point and also the batteries you use.

Personally I believe a company like Align should have tested everything that including in the package and make sure everything work to each other. So I never put other brand's spare parts on my Trex. Who knows if they are working on my Trex or not.
ccjohn98 is offline        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > 600 Class Electric Helicopters > 600 PRO Class Electric Helicopters


600 PRO Class Electric Helicopters 600 PRO Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2015 by RCGroups.com, LLC except where otherwise indicated. The HeliFreak.com logo is a trademark of RCGroups.com, LLC.