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Old 09-16-2011, 01:33 PM   #1
helidude71
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Default 500 ESP, DS-510 linkage ball on 13 mm? --- and Step L ---

Just a quick one to verify, is it really only 13 mm on the servo horn?
This is *much* less compared to my FB setup.
No binding against the servo case with 13 mm?

Oh, if you are running the FBL main shaft and Align FBL head can you give me a pointer for the linkage lenghts from servo up and swash up?
The Align manual is using the FB main shaft which is a bit longer, so I guess these values won't work for me. (I guess.)

Thx!
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Old 09-17-2011, 12:56 PM   #2
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Nobody?
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Old 09-19-2011, 05:02 PM   #3
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Default Step L

OK, because of the 13 mm position I run into binding when full negative pretty quick.
(As expected.)
This gives me a purple light on the BeastX in step L.
Blue would have been ideal.

Measuring the cyclic pitch I'm on 8 degrees.

Will this be a problem?
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Old 09-19-2011, 05:31 PM   #4
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How much collective pitch did you dial in? I've done it with off the hook +-15 + collective pitch and had no binding on my servos. I am not using an Align head, though. Right now it's set at +-12 degrees and no binding at either positive or negative collective with cyclic at each possible position. I didn't check cyclic pitch.

My link lengths from the servos to the swash are 19.8mm. All balls are positioned at 13mm.

I may be wrong, but the manual is confusing when you set collective range. (I know you're talking about step L, but collective range affects things in step L.) What I do is NOT go for the maximum collective like I would with another FBL system. I set collective range for what I am going to use and keep my pitch curve 0-25-50-75-100. When I went for the huge collective range, I had to change the pitch curve to get a collective pitch setting I liked and it made collective feel odd. So, there you go. I'm sure someone will say what I did is wrong and that you have to go to maximums, but it's my view that the manual is contradictory in that regard. In the end, my 500 flies like I like.

The kicker is the first and last sentence in step K.

"At setup point K you adjust the maximum desired negative and positive collective pitch." Then...

"Setup menu point K solely serves to teach the MICROBEAST the maximum used pitch range."

Kickers are the phrases "maximum desired" and "maximum used".

Scott
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Old 09-19-2011, 05:50 PM   #5
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Yeah, I believe 8* is pretty low as on all three of my setups, 250, 450 and 550, I am double that or even more. Such seemingly enormous values are fairly normal for FBL. I think 8* will not give the MB the headroom it needs to perform its functions properly but the LED colour will tell you that. What colour do you get at step L? Even the manual says it should be possible to easily get 10, 12* or maybe more, and that it should be maxed out if possible.

One of the guys from MB popped in and explained that if you include the tilt of the FB on a FB'd head, and add that to the normal pitch readings you would get, similar very large values are obtained even on FB heads, so you should not worry that they are too large, and anyway the MB will be in full control of what is going on. I know this isn't your issue, I just wanted to explain why I mentioned having double what you say you can get.

As has just been said though, the choice of collective range affects this, and I only have +-12 on two of mine, and +-13 on another. Not sure if these are conservative values, but maybe this explains why I can get such large values on the cyclic, as I am fairly well short of the ends of the shafts and servos travel, which leaves plenty of clearance.

Exactly where is your binding occuring, in fact what heli is this? Could you take some photos, or make a short video of it at that step, so we can all see what is going on. I'm sure there will be some good suggestions if you are able to do that.

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Old 09-20-2011, 03:56 PM   #6
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OK, to start with the beginning.
Were talking about my T-Rex 500 ESP conversion.
I dialed in 12* collective pitch (Step K)
(Scott, the manual is clear to me, dail in what you need/like at this point.)
Step J gives me a blue light so geometry is perfect for FBL use.

Step L is a problem, as you can see from the pics I quickly have binding when full negative collective pitch. This makes the LED turn purple, or just red if I accept little binding.

This can be solved by putting the ball one hole further out on the servo horn.
BUT the Align FBL manual specifically states 13 mm!
I also don't want to go this route because of the increased forces on the servos.
(Ball out makes this worse.)

Funny thing is I bought part "H50129T 500FL Linkage Ball" because the Align FBL manual says to put the two shorter balls on the inner swash ring.
Then connect the links to the blade grips to it.
Because shorter means less throw I measured the difference.
You can gain a full degree extra cyclic pitch if you DON'T do this.
Why the hell Align wants to reduce cyclic throw here?

So, I stick with the swashplate as it is but still can't do any better then a purple/red LED.
Any suggestions? (I tried reducing collective pitch but this helps very little and I want to stay close to 12*.)

Thx!
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:56 PM   #7
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Yeah, I just looked in the manual, to see if I could pick up any clues, but I couldn't. I did see the 13mm ball distance though. I would be like you, and would want to stick to the right distance. The head was the Align FBL head right? How can there be any other factors here, if you are already almost getting binding just with full -ve collective when set at the recommended -12* and when using the Align FBL head. I mean swash ball distances don't come into collective. I know you started the thread with a question about cyclic, which is affected by the swash ball distances, but if collective is very nearly binding at +-12* you have hardly anything left to start considering what you can do about improving cyclic. I also don't blame you for not wanting to go less than +-12*. I hope the other guys can see how to help you, because I just don't get it.

I wish I had a 500 to try and help, but I decided to skip that size. I'm sure there must be a bunch of guys with exactly your set-up who will be able to step in and help. I hope so, good luck.

Cheers

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Old 09-20-2011, 06:35 PM   #8
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I just used the stock balls on the swashplate inner and outer rings. I do see what you're talking about. That's at 8 degrees cyclic?

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Old 09-21-2011, 03:28 AM   #9
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Yes, with full negative collective pitch (-12*) I can get 9 degrees cyclic pitch with just a tiny bit binding.
The LED has just turned red at that point. (Step L)

(Sutty, it's -12* collective pitch and then I'm limited to 9 degrees cyclic throw without binding at the servo case.
The picture at post #6 shows just that.)

It's indeed the Align FBL head.

I hope someone can chime in with the same setup and tell me how they deal with Step L.

Thx all.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:50 AM   #10
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Yeah, sorry, I didn't know if you were down at -12 there, and I didn't know what amount of cyclic that tilt on the swash equated to. Sorry for not fully grasping your explanation, it is clear when I re-read it, that you say you very quickly have binding, meaning at 8 or 9 degrees tops, if you accept a little binding, when your collective is down at -12 degrees.

So from the manual there is nothing you can do to move the servos back, and go for the outside of the arms, as the servos are practically touching in the middle. You can't go to the outside of the arms as it stands because, 1) that's not how it is meant to be, and 2) you would have a significant angle, which would cause interations since the elevator would be straight, and looking at it, it would probably be an impractical angle anyway, which to my mind leaves only the swash.

Is the 3G swash different from the standard one? Maybe the inner swash on the 3G is somehow bigger, giving more throw. Maybe you can get enough by switching to shorter balls on the outer swash and longer balls on the inner swash. Obviously if you make that change you would have to re-visit step J and check that it is blue at 6, or close to it. Personally, if I could make a change to the balls that could take me up to say 14 degrees, and this meant you were slightly in the red, or further into the blue for step J, then I would go for that. Do you have a bunch of different length balls that you could try?

Maybe someone with the correct geometry, and blue at step L, could give you some swash and ball dimensions, that would surely help.

Sorry I couldn't be more help and again good luck in your search for a solution.

Cheers

Sutty
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:29 AM   #11
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No problem Sutty, thanks for thinking with me.
You're right, I think this is all I can get with the stock swashplate.
I don't think there is another FBL Align swashplate.
As said before one can get a bag H50129T to convert it to FBL.

Stupid thing is they make the balls shorter, reducing cyclic throw.
I really would like to know why?
(Align should make longer balls for the swash to increase throw.)

I'm done with it and left the swashplate as it is.
This gives me 9 degrees cyclic pitch tops with a red LED in Step L.

The locktite need to cure over night and tomorrow maiden her.
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:10 AM   #12
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If it is of any comfort, in the 3G manual, it says maximum of 9 degrees for agile heli, so maybe you will still be able to really zip it around. I guess it is just that at extreme stick, 9 degrees, the MB will have no additional room to use for its own correction purposes, which I presume is why it shows it as red, i.e not optimal.

I bet it still flies really well though.

Have a successful maiden.


Cheers

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Old 09-21-2011, 10:15 AM   #13
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I have read that as well.
I feel better already, thx.

My flying style is sports flight and on the inverted part I can only hover nose-in a bit.
So when my sticks are on full negative collective pitch with maximum cyclic pitch I'm in deep shit already.

After all this I'm curious how fast she will roll and flip.
We'll see.
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:46 AM   #14
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Hey Helidude. Were you able to get the blue light at 6* for step J, or did you have to move the balls on the servo horns to acheive that?
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVUSHELI View Post
Hey Helidude. Were you able to get the blue light at 6* for step J, or did you have to move the balls on the servo horns to acheive that?
Step J have never been a problem.
This always gives me a blue light.

Funny if you read this in the BeastX manual:

"When reaching 6 degrees, the Status-LED should light blue. This indicates that your helicopter‘s rotor head geometry is perfect for the use with a flybarless system."

"Perfect", guess not! Why is Step L such a PITA?
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:10 AM   #16
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I think I may have a solution to get the blue light at 6*. I need to move the servo arm balls in to that 13mm mark as you stated, From there, the links will actually be 90*. Won't know until I get off work tonight and change it all. If that doesn't work, then I'll have to change the balls on the inner swash ring. Who would've thought my paranoia in breaking the long balls on the blade grips would've come in handy by making me order extra ones. I'm gettin this bird in the air some how dammit lol!
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVUSHELI View Post
I think I may have a solution to get the blue light at 6*. I need to move the servo arm balls in to that 13mm mark as you stated, From there, the links will actually be 90*. Won't know until I get off work tonight and change it all. If that doesn't work, then I'll have to change the balls on the inner swash ring. Who would've thought my paranoia in breaking the long balls on the blade grips would've come in handy by making me order extra ones. I'm gettin this bird in the air some how dammit lol!
I assume you are using the DS-510 servos?
Which hole are you using now, giving you trouble with Step J?
How is Step L with your current ball position?
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Old 09-22-2011, 05:28 PM   #18
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I have to re-setup mine tomorrow (I crashed it over the weekend and had to replace the frames) and I'll let you know at which point in the collective pitch I get binding and I'll measure the cyclic at that point as well. I have DS510's for cyclics, btw.

Scott
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:45 PM   #19
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Default YYYYEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAA BOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!! Step J is BLUE!!

I found the ticket guys!! Second hole on the arms, and short balls on the inner swash!!!: bacon

I'm just a little bit happy lol.
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:12 PM   #20
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That is great to hear DVUSHELI.

But can you please answer my questions at post #17?
(Look at it before you made the change.)
I'm really curious about that.
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