Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > Multi Rotor Helicopters


Multi Rotor Helicopters Multi Rotor Helicopters Info and Support - Tandem, Quadcopters, Tricopters, Octocopters, and Hexacopters


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-11-2011, 04:21 AM   #1
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default First quadcopter X525 folding frame, cheap ebay 1000kv motors/18a esc's

Thought I'd already started this thread once, but must be imagining it, I fancied building a cheap first quadcopter for christmas, wanted a folding frame, and wanted to keep it budget so ideally wanted to get everything for around 160 (exluding lipo/receiver I already have), so ended up ordering the following a month or so ago (mostly from ebay hong kong, so takes a few weeks for postage):

Frame X525 V3 39 delivered from ebay - I looked at a few frames, wanted a folding frame, and something smart but robust - I'm really pleased with the X525, it has 'sprung' feet for impact absorption, folds neatly, and came with all fixtures required and clear photo instruction sheet, frame screwed together really easily (once I'd realised the hub bolts are M4, the M3 are all for the 'feet'.

KKMulticop​ter Blackboard V5.5 Quadcopter - I was torn between a plug n play Eagle N6, but decided to man up and get a programmable board - was a nightmare to get programming to work (lack of info from ebay seller, but sorted on forum thanks to help from kc8ykd) - by then I'd also ordered a Hobbyking V2 board pre-flashed for X-copter, so I have two to try/choose from.

I chose 1000kv motors/10x4.5 props as these seemed generally to be the recommended for this size quad, bought motors/esc's cheap on ebay, I wanted programmable ESC's, so I could disable LVC, and have options to tweak if needed, I went for 18A esc's as they looked good for the money, I cannot believe a quad of this weight (3S 2200, and possibly a light camera like a gopro later) could possibly draw anywhere over 800watts in flight - also wanted to keep cost/weight down.

RCtimer 1000KV Outrunner Brushless Motor Free Mounts 2830-11 7.19ea ebay - nice short motors, wires are solid core which I hope will be OK.

Aeolian 18A Brushless Motor ESC BEC for RC airplane 6.42ea ebay - programmable so I can disable/adjust LVC.

Aeolian ESC program card for model motor airplane 4.50 ebay, nice neat programming card, sets a few parameters but I will only probably use voltage cutoff.

Props 4 Pairs 10x4.5" 1045 1045R Counter Rotating Propeller 8.29 ebay - I wanted orange/bright props for front, but cannot find them anywhere cheap - infinity hobbies have really nice ones, but their postage charges are ridiculous - (ended up ordering orange props from quadcopters.co.uk)!

2mm bulletsx20 2.88 ebay I wanted to make everything pluggable, so I can easily swap/replace any bits if I have problems - esc's will velcro'strap onto arms, so I can swappout an ESC or motor easily.

Plan is to use 2mm bullets on motor/esc/power connectors, for lightweight, and ease of swapping out in case of any problems - for same reason I bought 5 sets of motors and esc's, so I have spares from same batch if any problems.

I tested the motors/esc's on arrival, and soldered up the bullets, so they are ready to go.

I also flashed (eventually), the KK board, and have used a small tupperware clip tub as a case to protect the controller in case of an inverted landing - also for orientation, I have bright red reflective stickers to put on front of the 'tub', and also plan to put something bright on the front legs - either bright stickers, or possibly LEDs depending on how I get on.

Total spend so far (exluding backup controller) is just under 150 ($230) including the spare motor/esc/props, so I'm roughly on budget. Pic of the parts last night:

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	11210QuadcopterPartsReady.jpg
Views:	8876
Size:	51.1 KB
ID:	272700  

Last edited by jamesb72; 12-21-2011 at 03:14 AM..
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 09:07 AM   #2
sundust
Registered Users
 
Posts: 117
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: turkey
Default

Hi James. Great job.
I ordered the same frame and controller (KK one) its on the way rigth now. They will arrive in 10 days.
I need help for flashing the KK controller for X setup with best firmware. Can you help?
and can we have some closeup photos of the tub?
Thanks
__________________
--------------
700 N
sundust is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 12:11 AM   #3
Die2Fly
Registered Users
 
Posts: 71
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United States, New York , Longisland
Default

Hey guys. I'm building my first quadcopter and I bought the same frame to from ebay. I bought the 1000kv motors. 1045 blades, But i think I went overboard when I bought the esc. I bought the hobbywing skywalker 40 amp esc. I think thats to much. But better to much then to little.
I had ordered the kk control board for this setup. And decided I didnt want it. Because I heard that the wii multicopter board is a lot better for the x mode. And it comes already setup for it. Here is the link.

http://www.goodluckbuy.com/mwc-multi...breakout-.html

Goodluckbuy.com got great prices. I did waste $22 on the kk board. But it is well worth it if you buy the multi wii board. I cant wait to get my stufff in. Im so excited. I never flew a quadcopter before. It looks so much fun. Ive been building helis and flying them for a year and half. Goodluck to you guys and your new build,

Cheers
Vicrtor
__________________
DJI NAZA F550, DJI NAZA TBS DISCOVERY, LOTUS R.C. T580P+ WITH DJI NAZA, 5.8GHZ 600MW TX FAT SHARK GOGGLES FOR FPV, ALIGN T-REX 600 FBL 3GX, ALIGN T-REX 450 FBL, SPEKTRUM DX8
Die2Fly is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 04:19 AM   #4
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundust View Post
Hi James. Great job.
I ordered the same frame and controller (KK one) its on the way rigth now. They will arrive in 10 days.
I need help for flashing the KK controller for X setup with best firmware. Can you help?
and can we have some closeup photos of the tub?
The frame is really nice, so think that was a good choice

Flashing controller I can't really help as I got stuck, and got help from http://www.helifreak.com/showpost.ph...7&postcount=23 - it worked fine (I unzipeed the driver and plugged in programmer, then manually browsed to the INF file), I kept the jumper ON, and flashed v4.7 X copter firmware on using kkflashtool, but haven't tried it yet.
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 11:41 AM   #5
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundust View Post
and can we have some closeup photos of the tub?
Its just a cheap plastic clip tub, I bought a pack of three sizes for 1 - this is the middle size, I drilled holes for the standoffs to mount on, and used 15mm M3 nylon standoffs to hold tub to frame and controller inside tub as I can do them up with finger tips, and they will snap in a crash (protecting the controller in tub hopefully), I also made a cloverleaf hole in centre of the lid for the wires to come up through.

The receiver is velcro'd into the tub so its above the controller in clear air, but still protected in an impact - also much easier for wiring than sliding it between the frame hubs which was my first idea (and leaves that area free for wiring).

The red sticker on front may not be sufficient for orientation (its reflective, as you can see from the flash in pic), if so I might add some LEDs inside the tub to light it up from inside, and maybe some LED's or stickers on the front legs.

I also found some orange 10x4.5" props for the front props, which I've ordered, so hopefully I can work out which way its pointing.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	111215IMG_1552.jpg
Views:	8379
Size:	52.2 KB
ID:	273862   Click image for larger version

Name:	111215IMG_1553.jpg
Views:	9029
Size:	66.9 KB
ID:	273863  

Last edited by jamesb72; 12-21-2011 at 03:15 AM..
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 03:15 PM   #6
sundust
Registered Users
 
Posts: 117
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: turkey
Default

Looks great thanks. looking forward for the progress..
__________________
--------------
700 N
sundust is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2011, 04:45 PM   #7
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

I had hoped to make some progress tonight, I soldered up the battery harness, Deans to 2mm bullets and mounted the motors, have velcro'd the ESC's to the arms, and plugged it all in.

I am using Spektrum DX8/AR6100e receiver, so have servo reversed for ail/ele/rud and normal for throttle. I assigned the motors as I've seen for X quads instructions:

Front left motor is plugged into M1 CW
Front right motor into M2 CCW
Rear right motor into M3 CW
rear left motor into M4 CCW

Started with the KK controller I'd flashed with 4.7 X quad firmware, I had to put yaw gain to max (not min, so pots reversed) to calibrate esc's but other than it worked fine, however when I check controls (with no props), elevator/aileron only seems to be revving up ONE motor, not two ??

I then swapped to the HobbyKing controller v2 I bought on ebay pre-flashed for X quad, and that seems to be the same ?

If I tilt the quad I can hear motors revving up/down, but it doesn't sound to me like the arm I move down is revving up, which I think it should be ?

I wonder if the motors are in the wrong positions, or maybe I just can't hear them revving up properly with no props. I assume the gyro directions would all be correct as board is upright/pointing right way so default should all be good ??

Last edited by jamesb72; 12-21-2011 at 03:16 AM..
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2011, 04:55 PM   #8
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

Well, just scratching my head, and looked at the 4.7 X quad firmware files I'd downloaded, and there is a readme file with a completely different motor layout - see below, I swapped ESC wires round to this layout, and everything now seems to work as I'd expect - so next step is to put props on and give it a tickle !

X-mode setup:
Motor 1: front left, CW
Motor 2: back left, CCW
Motor 3: Front right, CCW
Motor 4: Back right, CW

Last edited by jamesb72; 12-21-2011 at 03:17 AM..
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2011, 08:31 PM   #9
chansen1953
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,015
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Orange, NSw australia
Default

James, I read you on this.. I built and orientated my motor/blades according to the KK Board , as per your notes above..

however, now that I have the FF board ( see my main thread ) I am a bit confused.

The FF board seems ot have a different arrangement .. see below.. also the motors are numbered 1-3-2-4 as you move clockwise from motor 1 ?

maybe I have the motors plugged into the board wrong ?

1 -CCW
3 - CW
2 - CCW
4- CW
__________________
Chris, DX7 Electronics, Retired BELT CPV2
2 x HK600GT hybrids - + Blade Nano cpx ! DJI/FreeFlight Quadcopter several planks for relax time !

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I have not failed, I have just found 1000 ways that do not work.
chansen1953 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 03:46 AM   #10
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

At least we seem to be making progress - if slowly !!

Assuming I can get both controllers to work, anyone know which is better, the HobbyKing V2 board, or the KK 5.5 board ? The HK has much bigger sensors, not sure if that means anything ??

I think I will test fly with the HK board, as pots seem to be right way, the KK board pots seem reversed, so I wonder what else is, I did try to reverse the pots by putting roll to min and powering up, but no change !
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 05:15 AM   #11
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

Success at last, just gave it a first test hop - initially the yaw gyro was reversed, I suspected it from holding it over my head and twisting, but spooled up and confirmed it, reversed by putting roll to min then powering up and right rudder - 2nd flight its way out of trim, and oscillates but all controls work fine, I realised after landing that I gain was at 50%, I don't really understand what I gain is (readme says anti-wind up, but I have been so wound up by this quad, I would have put it to max ages ago!), but know it should be 0, so will try again with that.

I have a tiny bit of jiggle/oscillation, with yaw 50%, P-45% I 0%, not sure if this is normal, or if I need to tweak gains a bit more - its certainly nothing dramatic and perfectly flyable like this, I don't really understand I gain (P I think is what I know as gain for heli gyros, so understand that reasonably), so will experiment reducing P a bit more and see how I get on.

UPDATE: a link with explanation of P I D is http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1375728

Also, when I rev to full power I get a brupbrupbrup noise, not sure if this is the props flexing/overspeed? They are just cheap plastic 10x4.5 props (3S lipo, 1000kv motors), maybe they are not up to it ?

Other than those tiny niggles, I am really pleased with how this flew, its good and stable, I think it has the control response to flip, but not sure when I will be brave enough to try that, probably not until I get it to the flying field, which will be after christmas (as its my christmas present, so shouldn't really be playing with it yet anyway

Last edited by jamesb72; 12-20-2011 at 02:23 PM..
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 06:22 AM   #12
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

Quick video of first test flights, this was after my initial hop when yaw was reversed, I then had another hop to trim out controls (all needed a fair few clicks of trim to stay level), lastly realised I had I gain at 50%, so turned it down to 0%, and P gain down a fraction under half, so I'd call it 45%.

This is with HobbyKing V2 controller running v4.7 X software.


Last edited by jamesb72; 12-21-2011 at 08:36 AM..
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 01:43 PM   #13
chansen1953
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,015
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Orange, NSw australia
Default

looking good james, and it flies well mate !! well done !

my quad, with the FreeFlight (FF) board flies ok, but seems to be just a bit more touchy. I am going to put my Battery underneath for a better cog.. This qill then need to have the legs lengenthened to suit.. The FF board has a single 3-gyro chip and a single 3-accelerometer chip and an entirely different processor chip. It also has no on-board pots.. as everything is done via a usb-interface to a controller program..

so we wil see if I can get mine to fly better ?

have a good xmas, and well compere notes after
__________________
Chris, DX7 Electronics, Retired BELT CPV2
2 x HK600GT hybrids - + Blade Nano cpx ! DJI/FreeFlight Quadcopter several planks for relax time !

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I have not failed, I have just found 1000 ways that do not work.
chansen1953 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 03:11 PM   #14
Tomstoy2
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,485
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Erie,Colorado
Default

__________________
Avant Aurora 90n,Trex 600E Pro, HC500, HDX450sev4, Trex 250se, mCP-X, Mosquito, X/A Hexa/WKM/UHF/FPV, F330 Flame Wheel,
PenguinV2/UHF/FPV
Tomstoy2 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 02:44 AM   #15
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

Anyone know how I can check its going to flip safely ? I rocked the cyclic and it seems to have enough travel to me (if it was a heli, I'd have flipped it already, but without any neg pitch available, I'm a bit more cautious).

Also whats the controls for flipping, do I drop throttle over the top, or hold it at hover setting or ??????

Also, is it best to try first flips from forward flight, so I gain a bit of height on the pull up - or just start from high hover ??

Lastly, anyone know if the 4.7 firmware has any 'modes', I've read about UFO mode (fast yaw?) and acro mode (???) in other versions but there is no mention in the 4.7 readme file I have, control response seems fine to me as I have it, but any tips welcome !
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 09:34 AM   #16
Zombee
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Australia
Default

Hello brother, may i ask whats the diameter of the tub you are using?. i bought this frame and its on the way might take 2 more weeks, and this http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dProduct=12964, as a protector. do you think it will work?
Zombee is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 10:03 AM   #17
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

The tub I'm using is approx 100mm diameter, my KK controller is ~50mm square so diagonal is ~70mm.

That FOD guard looks great, but I think it will be pretty tight for space as the internal diameter on that guard is 82mm on wide end, and it tapers down - controller will be raised on standoffs probably ~15mm from the frame base - unless you mount the guard on standoffs as well ?
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 08:29 PM   #18
Zombee
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Australia
Default

Oh thanks, i thought 47mm height would be enough, im also using a distribution board, putting a stand off woudnt hurt it and its a good idea.. i ordered all the items i am using and now waiting, i want to know what you guys think about this setup.

Crius MultiWii SE version with FTDI
MK X525 V3 Fiberglass Frame
Power Distributor
SK2826 1000KV 240w
HK SS25-30A ESC
GWS3BLADHD9050 CCW CW
White Red Indicator led strips
Zombee is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2011, 04:38 AM   #19
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

Did a few more test flights in a hall last night, couple of problems.

- back left motor kept losing speed after 30 seconds or so of normal flight, I realised the esc/servo plug was quite loose, so suspect it was vibrating and losing contact, I removed the socket and pinched it with pliars to tighten it up, was fine after that.

- I've realised the brupbrup noise is the back left prop which is vibrating horribly above about half throttle - the rear props are very cheap black props from ebay - I had tried to balance them but they needed a fair bit of tape on to balance, so I'm not too surprised,

The front orange props from quadcopter.co.uk seem fine, and have much nicer quality hubs (which fit motors perfectly, no inserts needed), so I've ordered some black 10x4.5 props from quadcopter.co.uk to replace the cheap rear props, hopefully this should resolve it.

Probably serves me right for trying to cheap out on the props !

Other than that it flew fine, I'm a bit surprised at current draw, I haven't checked with an amp meter ( I have an onboard one with max memory I can check it with), but a 25C 2200 3S pack after only about 3 minutes of flight recharged 1700mah (about the same as a 5 min flight on my 450 pro heli), and was a bit puffy (shrunk down as it cooled so fine), so I will try 30/40C packs next time I think.

Only other issue is it hovers on almost no throttle, so when I'm full yaw, the props are almost stopping, I wonder if I need to drop the prop size, currently 10x4.5, so I guess 8x4.5 is step down, but I wonder if once I add a bit of weight, the 10x4.5 will be OK, so will stick with them for now.

Last edited by jamesb72; 12-20-2011 at 02:27 PM..
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2011, 02:28 PM   #20
jamesb72
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,144
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Default

I messed about a bit with quad tonight, realised the vibrating motor (back left) the prop adaptor was slightly out of true, tried another prop adapter, and swapped motor, and swapped prop adaptor back, and ended up picking the best combination of motor/prop adaptor to run truest - not quite perfect, but better than it was. These are the cheap collet prop adaptors, so might look for some better prop adaptors - anyone running grub screw vs collet, as not sure if they would be better ??

I then tried to balance prop again, ended up adding about 15mmx15mm of tape to one blade to balance it, which now runs much smoother, I also checked/balanced the other props, which all took much less tape to balance.

Lastly I stuck my amp meter on it, with a 2200 3S 40C pack, max amps I could get was 30Amps total - so 7.5Amps for each prop, so my 18A ESC will be fine, this was way more power than I would ever use in flight other than for a quick blip to arrest a fast descent, so I am happy the ESC's are fine for the job.

Some pics of final layout showing wiring (a bit of a mess!, will clean it up once I know its flying OK so no more changes).





Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	111220IMG_1558.jpg
Views:	4695
Size:	61.2 KB
ID:	274912   Click image for larger version

Name:	111220IMG_1559.jpg
Views:	4627
Size:	71.9 KB
ID:	274913   Click image for larger version

Name:	111220IMG_1560.jpg
Views:	4563
Size:	75.7 KB
ID:	274914  
jamesb72 is online now        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > Multi Rotor Helicopters


Multi Rotor Helicopters Multi Rotor Helicopters Info and Support - Tandem, Quadcopters, Tricopters, Octocopters, and Hexacopters

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2011 - William James - Helifreak.com