Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Electronics Support > Mikado V-BAR


Mikado V-BAR Mikado V-Stabi/V-BAR Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-03-2012, 11:24 PM   #1
byter182
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,070
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Default VBar Full BlackLine v5.2 Pro questions

Hey Guys,

Trying to setup my Full Black VBar w/v2 Pro firmware. Went through the whole setup and got caught up in a couple of areas.
  • Not getting the 8* on the Cyclic Tab
  • Not getting symmetrical pitch readings on full positive and full negative collective.
Setting up a Trex 600EFL Pro. Align DS610's cyclic, Align DS650 tail, DX8 Radio & AR8000 Rx w/Sat.

Have some more questions but can't remember them right now.

Thanks in advance,
Byter182
__________________
Trex 500 w/BeastX & i2 Head, Trex 550e w/BeastX & DFC
600EFL Pro w/SK720 & TracX Head
Logo 600se w/Blue MiniVBar, PowerJive120, Pyro 700-45L
Red SAB WobblinGoblin770 w/the iKon
byter182 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 11:43 PM   #2
TheBum
HF Support
 
Posts: 33,266
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: McKinney, TX, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Universe
Default

What exactly do you mean by "Not getting the 8* on the Cyclic Tab"? Do you mean that you can't get it no matter what slider value you use? If so, which way on the slider gets you closer? I'd bet that your servo arms are too long.

As for asymmetrical collective pitch, that's somewhat normal due to the FBL links not being 90 degrees to the grip arms. If you read the text in the Collective setup tab, it will tell you what to do to remedy it, i.e. lower whichever end point give the greatest pitch.
__________________
Alan (just call me "Bum"; no need to be so formal)
HeliFreak Support
Compass Atom 500 (V-Bar), *MIA* Compass 7HV (V-Bar), Dart Tin DT520E V2 (VBar), Stingray 500

Experience is something you gain only after you need it.
I wouldn't mind social media so much if it didn't involve people.
TheBum is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 02:20 AM   #3
byter182
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,070
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Default

I do get the 8 degrees but I had to adjust the slider values to values out of the recommendations.
__________________
Trex 500 w/BeastX & i2 Head, Trex 550e w/BeastX & DFC
600EFL Pro w/SK720 & TracX Head
Logo 600se w/Blue MiniVBar, PowerJive120, Pyro 700-45L
Red SAB WobblinGoblin770 w/the iKon
byter182 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 04:30 AM   #4
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

I have the same setup. On the 600 pro you defo need to use the inner holes on the blue horns. Even so you barely get in the range (80 to get 8ish). Servo geometry as stock give way to much gain IMO. Don't forget to change the elevator bell crank too

Regarding pitch range check that you have 0 pitch with servos arms 90 and your pitch endpoints in the radio are same (check in transmitter tab in vbar). Also check your pitch curve in your radio. If all this is done right there is no reason why you should get uneven pitch
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 08:18 AM   #5
TheBum
HF Support
 
Posts: 33,266
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: McKinney, TX, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Universe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by byter182 View Post
I do get the 8 degrees but I had to adjust the slider values to values out of the recommendations.
Which way? Was the slider value too high (arms too short) or too low (arms too long).
__________________
Alan (just call me "Bum"; no need to be so formal)
HeliFreak Support
Compass Atom 500 (V-Bar), *MIA* Compass 7HV (V-Bar), Dart Tin DT520E V2 (VBar), Stingray 500

Experience is something you gain only after you need it.
I wouldn't mind social media so much if it didn't involve people.
TheBum is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 08:37 AM   #6
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

Lol knowing the 600 efl I bet his slider is way too low. In fact I just checked mine and I'm at 75 in the vbar to get 8 degrees with the inner holes. Maybe I could find a shorter swash ball to improve that.
Collective at 85 gives me 12.5 degrees
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 08:54 AM   #7
TheBum
HF Support
 
Posts: 33,266
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: McKinney, TX, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Universe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliBenj View Post
Lol knowing the 600 efl I bet his slider is way too low. In fact I just checked mine and I'm at 75 in the vbar to get 8 degrees with the inner holes. Maybe I could find a shorter swash ball to improve that.
Collective at 85 gives me 12.5 degrees
Yep, shorter arms would solve both problems.
__________________
Alan (just call me "Bum"; no need to be so formal)
HeliFreak Support
Compass Atom 500 (V-Bar), *MIA* Compass 7HV (V-Bar), Dart Tin DT520E V2 (VBar), Stingray 500

Experience is something you gain only after you need it.
I wouldn't mind social media so much if it didn't involve people.
TheBum is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 09:32 AM   #8
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

OK following my own advice I tested with a short 4.95mm ball for the inner swash where the grip rods connect to. It is a Kasama ball. DImension from ball center to shoulder is 3.5mm. Stock Align ball is 6 mm.

My slider is now 82 for 8 degrees cyclic and 85 for 12.5 degrees collective

Bottom line this together with using the inner servo horn hole (18 mm) is the way to go to have vbar happy (and maybe other systems too).
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 09:38 AM   #9
TheBum
HF Support
 
Posts: 33,266
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: McKinney, TX, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Universe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliBenj View Post
OK following my own advice I tested with a short 4.95mm ball for the inner swash where the grip rods connect to. It is a Kasama ball. DImension from ball center to shoulder is 3.5mm. Stock Align ball is 6 mm.

My slider is now 82 for 8 degrees cyclic and 85 for 12.5 degrees collective

Bottom line this together with using the inner servo horn hole (18 mm) is the way to go to have vbar happy (and maybe other systems too).
Adjusting the ball spacing on the inner swash will only affect cyclic. It won't affect collective because the swash is still moving up and down the same amount. If you want both cyclic and collective increased, changing the servo arm length is the way to accomplish it.
__________________
Alan (just call me "Bum"; no need to be so formal)
HeliFreak Support
Compass Atom 500 (V-Bar), *MIA* Compass 7HV (V-Bar), Dart Tin DT520E V2 (VBar), Stingray 500

Experience is something you gain only after you need it.
I wouldn't mind social media so much if it didn't involve people.
TheBum is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 09:42 AM   #10
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

That is correct.

Collective was already correct by using the inner hole on the servo alone (85 in vbar).
However, cyclic was still low (75 as I mentionned).
Changing the ball took care of that.

That's why I say both mods were necesary to get an optimal resolution for vbar.

You can get away with just the inner servo hole (was flying like that before and it was flying good) but if you want it optimum my humble advice is change the inner swash ball also
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 09:44 AM   #11
TheBum
HF Support
 
Posts: 33,266
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: McKinney, TX, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Universe
Default

A value of 85 for 12.5 degrees sounds a little low to me. It's still within range, but on the low end of the scale.
__________________
Alan (just call me "Bum"; no need to be so formal)
HeliFreak Support
Compass Atom 500 (V-Bar), *MIA* Compass 7HV (V-Bar), Dart Tin DT520E V2 (VBar), Stingray 500

Experience is something you gain only after you need it.
I wouldn't mind social media so much if it didn't involve people.
TheBum is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 10:00 AM   #12
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

I agree but with the 600 it's difficult to get anything better. Shorter servo arm would cause a lot of binding on the servo case because the servo balls are long and towards the back of the servo.
Also what doesn't help is the grips arms to close to the center of the head IMHO. Was designed for the 3GX.
With that said, you can still get in range as you said and the Heli flies like a dream which is what ultimately counts. Even if the numbers are not 100% perfect my understanding is that they are in a well acceptable range. My TDR has similar cyclic value (more collective though) and cannot be faulted in flight.
Maybe on a smaller Heli it is more critical?
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 10:55 AM   #13
TheBum
HF Support
 
Posts: 33,266
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: McKinney, TX, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Universe
Default

The Dubro heavy duty servo arms provide quite a bit of clearance for the balls.
__________________
Alan (just call me "Bum"; no need to be so formal)
HeliFreak Support
Compass Atom 500 (V-Bar), *MIA* Compass 7HV (V-Bar), Dart Tin DT520E V2 (VBar), Stingray 500

Experience is something you gain only after you need it.
I wouldn't mind social media so much if it didn't involve people.
TheBum is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 11:34 AM   #14
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

Do you mean those?
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD668

I fail to see how it can help in the specific case of the 600 pro. The balls are like 13mm long. If you get much shorter balls to clear the servo case the rods will get a nasty angle. Might work but will it make things better for the vbar?
I feel the "problem" is the very geometry design on the 600.
I use quote because it still works perfect in flight at least for me with the mods I have done

What's the downside in flight to being in the lower part of the range (towards 80)? I thought optimal range was 80-100?

Ok now maybe we confused the OP more
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 11:56 AM   #15
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

Another point after visiting vstabi.info (good read btw).
They say it is best to get consistent cyclic and collective throws. I understand it is best to have say 90 slider for cyclic and 90 for collective (90 being any number between 80 and 100 which is considered optimum range).
In the case of the 600 efl pro, there is more cyclic than collective mechanical gain in stock form, whatever the servo arm. Inner holes gave me 75 cyclic and 85 collective, outer holes would be maybe 65 and 75... If we could get a shorter arm to work without binding that would get maybe 85 and 95 or whatever.

My point is on the 600 if you want to get the sliders even you have to do something about cyclic alone, be it shorter inner swash balls or longer outer swash balls (which could work together with shorter servo arms and dubro horns maybe to get even closer to 100?)

However I have no clue if this relationship between sliders is critical or even has any impact or if you're good to go as long as both sliders are within range although different.

They don't really say what happens if you're out of range or if your sliders are radically different
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 12:26 AM   #16
byter182
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,070
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBum View Post
Which way? Was the slider value too high (arms too short) or too low (arms too long).
Don't remember right now. Will check and let you know.
__________________
Trex 500 w/BeastX & i2 Head, Trex 550e w/BeastX & DFC
600EFL Pro w/SK720 & TracX Head
Logo 600se w/Blue MiniVBar, PowerJive120, Pyro 700-45L
Red SAB WobblinGoblin770 w/the iKon
byter182 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 12:42 AM   #17
byter182
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,070
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliBenj View Post
I have the same setup. On the 600 pro you defo need to use the inner holes on the blue horns. Even so you barely get in the range (80 to get 8ish). Servo geometry as stock give way to much gain IMO. Don't forget to change the elevator bell crank too

Regarding pitch range check that you have 0 pitch with servos arms 90 and your pitch endpoints in the radio are same (check in transmitter tab in vbar). Also check your pitch curve in your radio. If all this is done right there is no reason why you should get uneven pitch
I went w/the Align manual recommendation and put the linkage balls on the outer holes of the CNC servo horns. That's gonna be a PITO to get those CNC horns out. Do I have to change the linkage balls to inner hole on both the elevator servo horn and the elevator bell crank as well?

On the subject of PIT range. During initial setup of the Vbar software, in my DX8 radio I changed the PIT travel (endpoints) values as per vbar under the Transmitter tab in order to get the collective in sync. Was I supposed to approach that differently? My DX8 pitch curves were linear during setup.
__________________
Trex 500 w/BeastX & i2 Head, Trex 550e w/BeastX & DFC
600EFL Pro w/SK720 & TracX Head
Logo 600se w/Blue MiniVBar, PowerJive120, Pyro 700-45L
Red SAB WobblinGoblin770 w/the iKon
byter182 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 05:56 AM   #18
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by byter182 View Post
I went w/the Align manual recommendation and put the linkage balls on the outer holes of the CNC servo horns. That's gonna be a PITO to get those CNC horns out. Do I have to change the linkage balls to inner hole on both the elevator servo horn and the elevator bell crank as well?
Yes, it is indeed a PITA but both have to be changed otherwise you will get different throws between elevator and aileron. Your swash will not travel straight with collective input, not good.
With those changes you should see 75 in the cyclic tab for 8 degrees and the collective will be between 80-90 to get ~11.5 to 14 depending on what you want

Quote:
Originally Posted by byter182 View Post
On the subject of PIT range. During initial setup of the Vbar software, in my DX8 radio I changed the PIT travel (endpoints) values as per vbar under the Transmitter tab in order to get the collective in sync. Was I supposed to approach that differently? My DX8 pitch curves were linear during setup.
You are correct, you have to set a linear curve, at center stick adjust subtrim in the radio to see 0 in vbar and at full stick adjust endpoints in the radio to see 100 in the vbar both positive and negative.
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:37 AM   #19
byter182
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,070
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Default

Thanks HeliBenj.... That worked. Changed all my linkage balls on the servo horns and the elevator bell crank to the inner holes and now I'm getting better collective and cyclic throws. The 8* of pitch under the vbar software cyclic tab is now attainable at around 81 slider setting and am getting 13-14 degrees of collective pitch w/a slider setting of around 82-84. I'm a happy camper as long as it's w/i the recommended ranges.

There's another hole on the elevator bell crank in the middle where the 2 main parts bend that the manual suggested using the out hole as well. Was I supposed to change that to the inner hole as well? Reason I'm asking is because my swashplate moves foward and backwards very slightly with full positive and full negative collective stick inputs.

My 600 is flying a lot better now but noticed a slight drift to the right. I did a Hover Trim and I think it resolved the problem but it's not perfect. Still have to do some more tweaking. I have not set the cyclic ring yet as it sounds like a lengthy and complicated process. Don't even know where to find that. Can someone help?
__________________
Trex 500 w/BeastX & i2 Head, Trex 550e w/BeastX & DFC
600EFL Pro w/SK720 & TracX Head
Logo 600se w/Blue MiniVBar, PowerJive120, Pyro 700-45L
Red SAB WobblinGoblin770 w/the iKon
byter182 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 01:35 AM   #20
HeliBenj
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,724
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Provence, France
Default

Yes you have to change that hole in the lever too. For that you have to move the little spacer you will find from outer to inner hole. That will cure the swash travel.

Swash ring is found in the vbar setup, swash tab, expert settings (the little hat button)
__________________
Ben
Goblin 500 IKON w/ gov, Quantum 4115-1200, Hitec 5245, BLS251
DX8, RF6
HeliBenj is offline        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Electronics Support > Mikado V-BAR


Mikado V-BAR Mikado V-Stabi/V-BAR Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2011 - William James - Helifreak.com