Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Electronics Support > Electric Motors, Gearing, Speed Controls, Gyros, Receivers, and Other Electronics Discussion > Electric Motors Winding and Repair


Electric Motors Winding and Repair Electric Motors Winding and Repair Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-24-2012, 08:07 AM   #1
powercroco
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: germany
Default Hacker A 50 Turnado rewinded

some photos about this singlestrand rewinding:


www.tuning.powerditto.de/12N10P4035turnado.html
powercroco is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 08:43 AM   #2
ZuvieleTeile
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,779
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida - US
Default

I was wondering how to get this pin out from the Hacker motor.
I have a A50-14L sitting here and I opened it up, but put it back on the shelf for now.
"Reading" your explanations I didn't quite get the part where you pulled the stator off.
It sounded like you got it off in a turning motion?
Wasn't it glued besides the pin?
From what I understood, you put back the same copper amount, just a single strand.
Was there any gain in this, or did the motor have a short or probem?
__________________
Kind Regards ZT - TDR, Logo-400SE
No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.(AE)
ZuvieleTeile is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 08:52 AM   #3
powercroco
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: germany
Default

after removing the pin with a plier you must turn of the stator.
don't forget to cool it down before.
I used a leather glove to bring enough power on it without collateral damages.

the wish of the owner was, to make the motor running with lower temperature.
now there is a lot room for streaming air between the windings.

the same just worked with one layer 6+6x1,18 rewinding of pyro.
powercroco is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 09:15 AM   #4
ZuvieleTeile
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,779
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida - US
Default

Thanks Ralph,
which Kv did you achieve? (Or better, what was the original Kv of tis motor?)
Mine is a 14L with allegedly 400 Kv. If I rewind it, I would like to have it this low again, but with a good torque for a 800 project.
__________________
Kind Regards ZT - TDR, Logo-400SE
No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.(AE)
ZuvieleTeile is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 09:26 AM   #5
powercroco
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: germany
Default

don't know anymore.
didn't found back my notices about this.....
I think, it was about 5xx/V.
powercroco is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 03:32 PM   #6
don-dadda
Registered Users
 
Posts: 224
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Virginia
Default

How was the performance of this motor after it was rewound compared to rewound HKIII4035. I ask because I have both motors and the magnets on the Turnado seem alot weeker than the Scorpions.
don-dadda is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 10:22 PM   #7
don-dadda
Registered Users
 
Posts: 224
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Virginia
Default

Still looking for an answer to this question. Generally, how does the strength of the magnets affect the power output of a motor.
don-dadda is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 10:54 PM   #8
Stolla
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Port Elizabeth South Africa
Default

Ralph will know more but all things being equal stronger magnets will lower kv and provide extra torque, the same motor with stronger magnets will therefore be the stronger motor, to compare different motors there are too many variables to say one with stronger magnets will be better is therefore not possible. I would think the scorpion 4035mk3 would be the more powerful motor as the hacker also has a lot of space apparently between mags and stator which also robs power.
Stolla is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2012, 06:58 PM   #9
HeliFX
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,099
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

Question for Ralph

I may be doing rewinding on a Hacker A50-12L and trying to research relative information on this motor. Can't find good specs on stator.

your current example on your site is 6+6 x 1.8 mm Delta (Kv unknown ).
now my hope is to do this motor in YY kv 470.

any reason why the hacker was done via Delta and not YY ?
any concern with using YY with motor ?

if not plan on testing with thin wire first.

slowflyworld has a hacker on there site which was 11x1.5 mm 535Kv.
Although no mention if it was Delta or YY.
Safe to say there version is also delta. I'm wrong to assume this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
after removing the pin with a plier you must turn of the stator.
don't forget to cool it down before.
I used a leather glove to bring enough power on it without collateral damages.

the wish of the owner was, to make the motor running with lower temperature.
now there is a lot room for streaming air between the windings.

the same just worked with one layer 6+6x1,18 rewinding of pyro.
HeliFX is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 10:11 AM   #10
HeliFX
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,099
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

Perhaps someone can help -

What's special about "Delta Special"
http://www.powerditto.de/schemamodus12Naussen.html

Noticed that Delta is more commonly used when rewinding the Turnado or at least the few examples I've seen demonstrate this.
Has YY proven itself not favorable with this particular motor.
Looking for 470 kv

anyone can chime in and share their experience with the Turnado other then the example from powercroco would be greatly appreciated.
HeliFX is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 11:33 PM   #11
Stolla
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Port Elizabeth South Africa
Default

as far as I know only difference is kv, for yy 15% higher, so if space is limited same amount of copper will give you lower kv , don't know how this compares as for likeability by esc? That Ralph will have to tell us
Stolla is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 11:51 PM   #12
powercroco
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: germany
Default

there are imo some reasons to use YY winding:

- the rpm-jump for one turn more or less is lower than in delta.
- the single wire can be thinner for the same n spec, because of you use 2 in parallel - only on different teeth. so it will be easier to wind with them.
- the thinner single wires bring the border for negativ effects by skin effects (good esc use up to 32kHz in part-load today!) and also possible eddy currents in copper up.
- some esc like the YY more than D. in YY they will get an "average" back-emk. so small mistakes in magnet positions will "equalized" seen from esc.
powercroco is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 09:03 AM   #13
HeliFX
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,099
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

interesting.

I've read that for some strange reason with the turnado motor that working out spec on paper resulted in a larger difference in actual result with higher Kv then expected.

Is the stator Length very different then other similar motors which in turn adding the 15%

my observation to get a lower Kv say 470 YY which based on my chart would be in the area of 6 x7 or even more turns and using thin copper wire for it to fit the stator.
I guess this would cause poor efficiency / skin effects as Ralph pointed out.

My assumption that the Kv on Ralph site may be in the area of 520- 560.

another forum one other user did 5x5 YY 1.6 mm which resulted in 630Kv.


Is it safe to say I need to stick to Delta ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
there are imo some reasons to use YY winding:

- the rpm-jump for one turn more or less is lower than in delta.
- the single wire can be thinner for the same n spec, because of you use 2 in parallel - only on different teeth. so it will be easier to wind with them.
- the thinner single wires bring the border for negativ effects by skin effects (good esc use up to 32kHz in part-load today!) and also possible eddy currents in copper up.
- some esc like the YY more than D. in YY they will get an "average" back-emk. so small mistakes in magnet positions will "equalized" seen from esc.
HeliFX is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 09:21 AM   #14
powercroco
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: germany
Default

to thick wire causes this negative side effects.
we found it in the region of 1,9 up in thickness.

the only matter what termination causes is, that you have the thicker single wire in delta.
in yy the square of the single wire can be 15% lower for the same amps.

make a testwinding with thin wire.
this is the best way to calculate the needed number of turns under respect of the special properties of your motor.
powercroco is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 09:31 AM   #15
HeliFX
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,099
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

yes this is my plan.
would like to keep it YY for obvious reasons (good for ESC)

wow didn't realize too thick had opposite adverse effects.

Ralph for the example on your site you used Delta special on the Turnado.
What is difference using Delta Special ?
any advantage to this schematic




Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
to thick wire causes this negative side effects.
we found it in the region of 1,9 up in thickness.

the only matter what termination causes is, that you have the thicker single wire in delta.
in yy the square of the single wire can be 15% lower for the same amps.

make a testwinding with thin wire.
this is the best way to calculate the needed number of turns under respect of the special properties of your motor.
HeliFX is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 09:32 AM   #16
NRPY
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: California, USA
Default

What is a "skin effect"?
NRPY is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 09:40 AM   #17
powercroco
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: germany
Default

delta special.

the 3 ingoing wire pairs use the same slot (each pair).
if you connect them direct there, where they went into the slot, you will have equal lenghts on every side of the resulting triangle.

skin effects:
http://www.aerodesign.de/peter/2001/...in-Effekt.html

nowadays we use frequencies up to more than 32kHz with good controllers in part load.
this may be high enough, to generate such effects.
powercroco is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 09:49 AM   #18
HeliFX
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,099
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

thank you

makes sense


Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
delta special.

the 3 ingoing wire pairs use the same slot (each pair).
if you connect them direct there, where they went into the slot, you will have equal lenghts on every side of the resulting triangle.

skin effects:
http://www.aerodesign.de/peter/2001/...in-Effekt.html

nowadays we use frequencies up to more than 32kHz with good controllers in part load.
this may be high enough, to generate such effects.
HeliFX is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 03:42 PM   #19
ZuvieleTeile
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,779
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida - US
Default

@ HeliFX
is this really a Hacker A50-12L or a Turnado a50-12L?
__________________
Kind Regards ZT - TDR, Logo-400SE
No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.(AE)
ZuvieleTeile is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 06:30 PM   #20
HeliFX
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,099
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

this motor

http://www.aero-model.com/Hacker-Bru...L-Turnado.aspx


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuvieleTeile View Post
@ HeliFX
is this really a Hacker A50-12L or a Turnado a50-12L?
HeliFX is online now        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Electronics Support > Electric Motors, Gearing, Speed Controls, Gyros, Receivers, and Other Electronics Discussion > Electric Motors Winding and Repair


Electric Motors Winding and Repair Electric Motors Winding and Repair Discussion

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2015 by RCGroups.com, LLC except where otherwise indicated. The HeliFreak.com logo is a trademark of RCGroups.com, LLC.